Built quality JBL 705 i speakers

[Deleted member 2944]

You've really got the bit between your teeth on this. I suggest to just let it go and move on.
It's obvious you consider this a serious oversight in the design of these speakers. Thus you rejected them for your use and went a different direction.
Fine and dandy.

Dave.

 

[echopraxia]

Please refrain from personal remarks, and let’s focus on the technical discussion. I‘m done stating my perspective on this. There are several people here with opinions on each side, so at this point, we need more opinions from other people on whether this attribute is seen as acceptable from a $2000/pair master reference monitor. Thank you for making your perspective clear!

 

[TimVG]

Having owned the 705 (and 708) - the dip is insignificant really. The 705 remains the most potent small form factor speakers I've seen to date.
I found, as shown on page 1, some minor physical quality inconsistencies more offendable than what's being discussed from its spinorama/polar plots. As Jhaider says, the design team chose to extend response down low in a -really- compact format. That woofer can also move a big amount of air, so you need a reasonably large port if you want to avoid, imo -far more audible- chuffing effects, which they did. The result is a very narrow dip, which is, as someone who actually owned it, not an issue. And I'm usually fussy about things like this.

 

[q3cpma]

Honestly, it's quite sad seeing the JBL apologists "conveniently" ignore the time domain issue and only talking about the FR dip. It's a badly designed speaker, the end. It's not like good brands can't fuck up; their hissing LSR305 is already proof of that (inb4 "I use nearfield monitors as midfield so I don't care").
Now, let's just look at its selling points, SPL and dimensions:
* Peak SPL (1m, 80 Hz - 20 kHz): 107 dB
* Continuous SPL (1m, 80 Hz - 20 kHz): 101 dB
* Dimensions (HxWxD mm): 268 x 151 x 274
* Weight: 5.7 kg

For the Neumann KH120A
* Max. short term SPL with music material at 2.3 m in typical listening conditions (pair / full range): 97 dB
* Max. long term SPL with pink noise at 2.3 m, in typical listening conditions (pair / full range): 93 dB
* Dimensions: 277 x 182 x 220
* Weight: 6.4 kg
Which means 104 dB of peak and 100 dB of continuous at 1m.

Or if you want "loud", the Dynaudio BM5A Compact:
* Max SPL 1m, pair (IEC Short Term): 115 dB peak
* Dimensions: 170 x 260 x 235
* Weight: 7 kg

So it's not even that incredible in its (tiny) niche of small but loud monitors.

 

[TimVG]

The time domain ringing is inaudible and in this case, an artifact - see Floyd Toole's book for a comprehensive explanation of the research. It's a very well designed loudspeaker that, like any loudspeaker, is a compromise. It seems certain people are hell-bent on negating the excellent performance of the 705.

 

[snowsurfer]

Interesting read, I've pretty much decided to upgrade my 305s to KH120As, but still interesting. By the way, maybe I'm deaf but I have no hissing problems on my 305s. Also I've already seen the KH120A pairs discounted at around 1K€, which is a much better price than the 705s. Also, for my use (desktop near a back wall), the front ports of the KH120As seem better than back ports.

 

[TimVG]

Interesting read, I've pretty much decided to upgrade my 305s to KH120As, but still interesting. By the way, maybe I'm deaf but I have no hissing problems on my 305s. Also I've already seen the KH120A pairs discounted at around 1K€, which is a much better price than the 705s. Also, for my use (desktop near a back wall), the front ports of the KH120As seem better than back ports.

Port tends to radiate sound omnidirectionally, so that shouldn't really matter as much - but the KH120 are definitely more value for the money.

 

[BDWoody]

Having owned the 705 (and 708) - the dip is insignificant really. The 705 remains the most potent small form factor speakers I've seen to date.

Same here...and my impressions are the same. It's a game of compromises, and these speakers don't give up much. I really like mine (both the 708's and the 705's). Powerful little beasts...

 

[jhaider]

Now, let's just look at its selling points, SPL and dimensions:
* Peak SPL (1m, 80 Hz - 20 kHz): 107 dB
* Continuous SPL (1m, 80 Hz - 20 kHz): 101 dB
* Dimensions (HxWxD mm): 268 x 151 x 274
* Weight: 5.7 kg

For the Neumann KH120A
* Max. short term SPL with music material at 2.3 m in typical listening conditions (pair / full range): 97 dB
* Max. long term SPL with pink noise at 2.3 m, in typical listening conditions (pair / full range): 93 dB
* Dimensions: 277 x 182 x 220
* Weight: 6.4 kg
Which means 104 dB of peak and 100 dB of continuous at 1m.

Or if you want "loud", the Dynaudio BM5A Compact:
* Max SPL 1m, pair (IEC Short Term): 115 dB peak
* Dimensions: 170 x 260 x 235
* Weight: 7 kg

So it's not even that incredible in its (tiny) niche of small but loud monitors.

Let's use credible third party data instead of manufacturer claims. The executive summary is:

• 705P has more bass output than KH120A
• KH120A beats 705P in average SPL capability above 100Hz (!)
• Dynaudio SPL specifications are not credible.

Here's the data.
705P S&R review:
max. Nutzlautstärke [max useful SPL capability]: 102 dB (3% THD 100 Hz — 10 kHz)
Basstauglichkeit [bass capability]: 101 dB (10% THD 50 — 100 Hz)

KH120A (S&R Studiomontior Special, at 277):
Max. Nutzlautstärke: 104 dB (3% THD 100 Hz-10 kHz)
Basstauglichkeit: 98 dB (10% THD 50-100 Hz)

Dynaudio:
BM5A hasn't been measured by Sound und Recording. Air 15 is the lone Dynaudio speaker in S&R's PDF archive. (Studiomontior Special, at 392). Air 15 is an 8" 2-way measuring 25 x 275 x 395 mm / 16,7” x 10,8” x 15,5”. (Manual, at 97) At the time of S&R's review Air 15 cost ca. € 3.808,–. This model appears to be discontinued, but is illustrative in determining whether Dynaudio's published specifications are trustworthy.

Dynaudio claims "Peak SPL 1 m, pair (IEC Short Term) > 128 dB peak" and "Max SPL 1 m, (IEC Long Term) 103 dB RMS" (ibid.). for Air 15 S&R's summary:
Max. Nutzlautstärke: 107 dB (3 % THD 100 Hz–10 kHz)
Basstauglichkeit: 100 dB (10 % THD 50–100 Hz)

Here, Dynaudio's "continuous" figure is 3dB optimistic, and max SPL appears to have been plucked out of a hat. And look at that, the pint sized 705 and the $4000 pair 8" 2-way Dynaudio have basically equivalent usable bass output!

 

[q3cpma]

Let's use credible third party data instead of manufacturer claims. The executive summary is:

• 705P has more bass output than KH120A
• KH120A beats 705P in average SPL capability above 100Hz (!)
• Dynaudio SPL specifications are not credible.

Here's the data.
705P S&R review:
max. Nutzlautstärke [max useful SPL capability]: 102 dB (3% THD 100 Hz — 10 kHz)
Basstauglichkeit [bass capability]: 101 dB (10% THD 50 — 100 Hz)

KH120A (S&R Studiomontior Special, at 277):
Max. Nutzlautstärke: 104 dB (3% THD 100 Hz-10 kHz)
Basstauglichkeit: 98 dB (10% THD 50-100 Hz)

Dynaudio:
BM5A hasn't been measured by Sound und Recording. Air 15 is the lone Dynaudio speaker in S&R's PDF archive. (Studiomontior Special, at 392). Air 15 is an 8" 2-way measuring 25 x 275 x 395 mm / 16,7” x 10,8” x 15,5”. (Manual, at 97) At the time of S&R's review Air 15 cost ca. € 3.808,–. This model appears to be discontinued, but is illustrative in determining whether Dynaudio's published specifications are trustworthy.

Dynaudio claims "Peak SPL 1 m, pair (IEC Short Term) > 128 dB peak" and "Max SPL 1 m, (IEC Long Term) 103 dB RMS" (ibid.). for Air 15 S&R's summary:
Max. Nutzlautstärke: 107 dB (3 % THD 100 Hz–10 kHz)
Basstauglichkeit: 100 dB (10 % THD 50–100 Hz)

Here, Dynaudio's "continuous" figure is 3dB optimistic, and max SPL appears to have been plucked out of a hat. And look at that, the pint sized 705 and the $4000 pair 8" 2-way Dynaudio have basically equivalent usable bass output!

I was indeed a bit skeptical of Dynaudio's given data but I just expected them to have distorted them, not completely made them up.

Still, my point is that the niche the 705p is filling is very small or even imaginary, because going just a little bigger would be a way better way to get higher SPL; and bigger is a stretch, since the 705p are very deep. I mean, who has the space for the long 705p but not for 6"-7" woofer sporting speakers?
And this niche also has the KH120A that is way cheaper and probably better built.

Honestly, I have nothing against JBL and think their products have very good points, especially good directivity and incredible drivers, but I think the LSR30x serie is a bit too cheap and it shows in some areas while the 70x are either way too expensive compared to the competition or shouldn't have that kind of problems (build quality and port resonance for the 705p). That's too bad because I really like the 70x serie's look.
Another problem is that JBL itself gives no measurements at all. We can search around Harman research to find a spin-o-rama (which is still lacking compared to what Neumann gives), but the average buyer can't find them on the product page or even in the manual.

 

[Ilkless]

I was indeed a bit skeptical of Dynaudio's given data but I just expected them to have distorted them, not completely made them up.

Still, my point is that the niche the 705p is filling is very small or even imaginary, because going just a little bigger would be a way better way to get higher SPL; and bigger is a stretch, since the 705p are very deep. I mean, who has the space for the long 705p but not for 6"-7" woofer sporting speakers?
And this niche also has the KH120A that is way cheaper and probably better built.

Honestly, I have nothing against JBL and think their products have very good points, especially good directivity, but I think the LSR30x serie is a bit too cheap and it shows in some areas while the 70x are either way too expensive compared to the competition or shouldn't have that kind of problems (cheap MDF, build quality and port resonance). That's too bad because I really like the 70x serie look.
Another problem is that JBL itself gives no measurements at all. We can search around Harman research to find a spin-o-rama (which is still lacking compared to what Neumann gives), but the average buyer can't find them on the product page or even in the manual.

The 120A, especially on sale, ticks boxes like nothing else in it's price range and form factor. Exemplary (independently-verified) FR, directivity (albeit narrower), max SPL for the size, bi-amplification, active crossover (with protection), low if not inaudible noise (S&R measured 19.9dBA at 10cm - 0dBA at 1m), cast aluminium low-diffraction enclosure, front ports integrated into the enclosure, exceptional manufacturing consistency, international warranty (ie. no grey market), made in EU (Ireland). That last factor nullifies the excuse used by ludicrously-priced British "artisanal" minimonitors with nowhere the same amount of features or engineering like the P3ESR. In some markets, Genelec's 8030C might be cheaper/more available.

In comparison, the 705p always felt a tough sell to me (unless one really uses the built in EQ and digital connectivity - the many features most home users leave unused are also part of the price!). The 708p gets a pass because I think that is a much rarer form factor, more space to play with (potentially realising a larger advantage in dynamics/max SPL), and has some more of the trick JBL stuff like Differential Drive. It also has no port resonance.

Only reason I don't have a KH120A is because Sennheiser charges way too much for it locally and buying from Thomann seemed daunting because I hadn't known there was international warranty when I was shopping speakers. Ironically we have the best ATC prices I've ever seen anywhere else. A new SCM7 costs around $900 (on sale right now) - compared to $1750 in the US.

 

[q3cpma]

The 708p is indeed very attractive, but still too pricy. We still come back to Neumann with their cheaper (at least here) KH310. There's also Genelec's 1032C, but it's probably inferior, sound quality wise (as seen in its manual measurements); better built with a way longer warranty, though.

EDIT: JBL pro stuff has a 5 year warranty. Nice.

 

[BDWoody]

The 708p is indeed very attractive, but still too pricy. We still come back to Neumann with their cheaper (at least here) KH310. There's also Genelec's 1032C, but it's probably inferior, sound quality wise (as seen in its manual measurements); better built with a way longer warranty, though.
EDIT: JBL pro stuff has a 5 year warranty. Nice.

I got the 708p's on B-stock sale for $1,000 each, and the 705p's for $500 each. I have no idea what sales or other offers the others have, but in my case it's worked out great. No issues that I could find with any of them, and no complaints on performance. I don't know if I would have paid full retail, as I think there are other interesting options at that level, but for $2k for the pair, I can't complain. Not sure if it's a regular thing or not, but might be worth keeping an eye out for.

 

[q3cpma]

I got the 708p's on B-stock sale for $1,000 each, and the 705p's for $500 each. I have no idea what sales or other offers the others have, but in my case it's worked out great. No issues that I could find with any of them, and no complaints on performance. I don't know if I would have paid full retail, as I think there are other interesting options at that level, but for $2k for the pair, I can't complain. Not sure if it's a regular thing or not, but might be worth keeping an eye out for.

At that price, it's indeed very good value. Here, it's 2000€ (new) while the KH310 is 1750€.

 

[BDWoody]

At that price, it's indeed very good value. Here, it's 2000€ (new) while the KH310 is 1750€.

I didn't have to think about it very long. I would buy the others you mentioned as well at similar prices... Other than being just double bagger FUGLY, I am really enjoying them. It's very hard to tell the difference between the 705's and 708's at normal listening levels...

 

[q3cpma]

I didn't have to think about it very long. I would buy the others you mentioned as well at similar prices... Other than being just double bagger FUGLY, I am really enjoying them. It's very hard to tell the difference between the 705's and 708's at normal listening levels...

By the way, are they as deep as they seem on the pictures?

 

[BDWoody]

By the way, are they as deep as they seem on the pictures?

They are... Height and depth are about the same...which is roughly 2xWidth.
The 705's are almost as deep as the 708's.

 

[jhaider]

Still, my point is that the niche the 705p is filling is very small or even imaginary, because going just a little bigger would be a way better way to get higher SPL;

We'll see. You could be right, given the recent B-stock blowout.

bigger is a stretch, since the 705p are very deep. I mean, who has the space for the long 705p but not for 6"-7" woofer sporting speakers?

Off the top of my head - someone with a relatively narrow desk with some space in front of it, and a relatively wide monitor.

I've been told (i.e what follows may be Harman marketing spin) that JBL did not originally intend to make powered 7-Series models. They expected 7-Series would fit in control rooms with separate amp closets. Customers pushed them to bring out the plate amp versions. I still like the original concept better.

705i is also better proportioned than 705P: a little over 8" deep vs. almost 11" deep. I suspect reengineering the baffle and waveguide for the plate amp models would have been unjustifiably expensive, but adding some more birch for depth does not add much cost.

And this niche also has the KH120A that is way cheaper and probably better built.

Fair point. Neumann monitors generally are more stylish and finished better than JBL 7-Series or M2. However, Neumann's build quality is not perfect, either. I am waiting on my second warranty replacement KH80 due to issues with the standby logic... (One of my original pair worked as expected.) I picked KH80 (just before the current sale, naturally) instead of KH120 because the data shows no apparent drawbacks for my desktop application, though the Neumann app is underwhelming.

Assuming the second replacement speaker works, I'm looking forward to comparing KH80, 705i, and my current desktop speakers. My current speakers use 8" coaxes scavenged from a pair of KEF Q900 and my passive crossover. They're not perfect but I'm happy with their sound quality - see measurements below. However, I've evolved to the point where I want something with less frontal area (baffles approx. 11" x 16") staring at my face when I'm working or writing at my desk.

VituixCAD now references DI to listening window, Spinorama-style, and that is how DI is calculated for this figure.
I do not know if the power response coefficients are exactly the same as Spinorama.

If Neumann had something like 7-Series i, I would have strongly considered them. Beyond desktop use, I am not a fan of plate amps in main speakers. I like active, but I want the crossover (separate or integrated with amplification) in a separate box.

Another problem is that JBL itself gives no measurements at all. We can search around Harman research to find a spin-o-rama (which is still lacking compared to what Neumann gives), but the average buyer can't find them on the product page or even in the manual.

I get why Harman only does spins, given that they invented them, have research demonstrating strong correlation to preference, and convinced a standards organization to adopt them. Like you presumably, I still want to see polar maps. That's why my speaker reviews will always have at least a horizontal polar map. I share your criticism that Harman makes one dig for their data instead of just adding a link to every product, though this thread reminds us that the value of data is bounded by the capability of the interpreter to understand it.

 

[617]

We'll see. You could be right, given the recent B-stock blowout.



Off the top of my head - someone with a relatively narrow desk with some space in front of it, and a relatively wide monitor.

I've been told (i.e what follows may be Harman marketing spin) that JBL did not originally intend to make powered 7-Series models. They expected 7-Series would fit in control rooms with separate amp closets. Customers pushed them to bring out the plate amp versions. I still like the original concept better.

705i is also better proportioned than 705P: a little over 8" deep vs. almost 11" deep. I suspect reengineering the baffle and waveguide for the plate amp models would have been unjustifiably expensive, but adding some more birch for depth does not add much cost.



Fair point. Neumann monitors generally are more stylish and finished better than JBL 7-Series or M2. However, Neumann's build quality is not perfect, either. I am waiting on my second warranty replacement KH80 due to issues with the standby logic... (One of my original pair worked as expected.) I picked KH80 (just before the current sale, naturally) instead of KH120 because the data shows no apparent drawbacks for my desktop application, though the Neumann app is underwhelming.

Assuming the second replacement speaker works, I'm looking forward to comparing KH80, 705i, and my current desktop speakers. My current speakers use 8" coaxes scavenged from a pair of KEF Q900 and my passive crossover. They're not perfect but I'm happy with their sound quality - see measurements below. However, I've evolved to the point where I want something with less frontal area (baffles approx. 11" x 16") staring at my face when I'm working or writing at my desk.

View attachment 38572
VituixCAD now references DI to listening window, Spinorama-style, and that is how DI is calculated for this figure.
I do not know if the power response coefficients are exactly the same as Spinorama.

View attachment 38573

View attachment 38571

If Neumann had something like 7-Series i, I would have strongly considered them. Beyond desktop use, I am not a fan of plate amps in main speakers. I like active, but I want the crossover (separate or integrated with amplification) in a separate box.



I get why Harman only does spins, given that they invented them, have research demonstrating strong correlation to preference, and convinced a standards organization to adopt them. Like you presumably, I still want to see polar maps. That's why my speaker reviews will always have at least a horizontal polar map. I share your criticism that Harman makes one dig for their data instead of just adding a link to every product, though this thread reminds us that the value of data is bounded by the capability of the interpreter to understand it.

I completely agree with regards to directivity sonograms. I also like to see power response and DI if available. I really do not find the 'spinorama' data to be that informative although the resolution is nice.

 

[q3cpma]

I get why Harman only does spins, given that they invented them, have research demonstrating strong correlation to preference, and convinced a standards organization to adopt them. Like you presumably, I still want to see polar maps. That's why my speaker reviews will always have at least a horizontal polar map. I share your criticism that Harman makes one dig for their data instead of just adding a link to every product, though this thread reminds us that the value of data is bounded by the capability of the interpreter to understand it.

What is really lacking is cumulative spectral decay and SPL / frequency at fixed THD (where these would shine). The CSD is especially important since such resonance would have shown.
About its audibility, I noticed that SoundOnSound did talk about it; it may be quite the subjective review, but since the problem is not imaginary but actually here, it's immediately more credible.