Benefits of using expensive DACs

[JustJones]

But DAC C sounds better than both A and B.

 

[solderdude]

Or... does DAC C only sound better than DAC B but not as good as DAC A ?

Nah ... I'll take your word for it.... that's how its done ... agreed C is superior to A as well as B.... as long as we can agree that all DACs sound different and some are simply superior.

 

[HammersRocco]

I would like to point out the following article:

PSA: Don’t Fall for the High-End DAC Scam!

Bigger numbers don’t mean better sound when your ears can’t tell the difference.

www.headphonesty.com

I invite our blog friends to read and carefully evaluate what is written. I totally agree with the author.

The only thing I expect from an expensive DAC, is that it never breaks! Extraordinary build, reliability, that, it's really worth paying for, IMHO.

 

[JustJones]

 

[Robin L]

This whole topic seems to have descended into values of people that buy expensive DACS, and how a $100 China-DACS is smarter/enough/etc.
And these dummies that spend more are duped.

This is the Audio Science Review. The premise here is that what is audible can be measured, that there are limits on what can be heard and that the cost of a given piece of audio gear and its performance do not correlate. Using the term "duped" doesn't really cover it. The real issues are the limits of what is audible and also what is justified in terms of cost. No amount of bling is going to make the DCS DAC that costs £12,500 :

dCS Bartok (with headphone amp) Measurements - GoldenSound

The dCS Bartok is a 'summit fi' level DAC with a hefty pricetag of £12,500. But whilst the performance is great in many areas, others leave some questions unanswered.

goldensound.audio

. . . sound (or measure) any better than my Topping E30, which costs $130:

Topping E30 DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping E30 USB DAC. It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. Unfortunately I did not get pricing information. As soon as I get it, I will post it. EDIT: just heard back. US cost is just $129.99! This is a bit of a new look...

www.audiosciencereview.com

That has everything to do with science - displaying what can be measured and determining how those measurements relate to how something sounds.

While there are DACs that measure better than the Topping E30, the E30 bumps up against the limits of what can be heard. Like Paul Simon says, proof is the bottom line for everyone.

 

[voodooless]

Would you be willing to except that assertion for the sake of furthering the discussion?

I see no reason to do so, unless you reveal what DAC and B are, so we can assess their performance. Why play silly games by hiding their identities?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

The designers that make expensive (read superior and thus better sounding) DACs have to sign a non-disclosure agreement so the designers that make the superior DACs can't and won't disclose what is needed to do so.
We asked several designers and they all say they do it differently and their way is best and sometimes give hints in their advertising materials.
It seems there are many ways to make better sounding DACs.

The Topping engineers are not part of this elitist group of designers so have no knowledge about this but do state a lot of things in their advertisements but are faking it.
Instead they just design for optimal signal fidelity which, obviously, is the wrong method and sterilizes the sound. It is neutered as it were.
If only they learned how to use the right components then their DACs would measure and sound great. Even their new 1 bit discrete DAC struggles with superiority in sound.
Now Topping stuff only measure great... but sounds poor ... bummer.

Obviously, they should be employing multibit with a triode output stage, and a gradual roll off filter out to 28khz or so, that'll make it sound better.

 

[akamatsu]

I see no reason to do so, unless you reveal what DAC and B are, so we can assess their performance. Why play silly games by hiding their identities?

Okay. Thanks. I just didn't want to get into a big discussion that goes nowhere.

 

[Doodski]

Okay. Thanks. I just didn't want to get into a big discussion that goes nowhere.

You are in a discussion that is going nowhere. Have you read an ASR DAC review and seen the graphs. If you have then tell us why your DAC(s) sound better.

 

[Blumlein 88]

All DACs sound better when used with a Cary preamp that had a proprietary specific digital input. Tube digital filtering was involved. I owned one I know the difference.

 

[Chrispy]

Hmm general benefit would be a lighter wallet I'd think. Fuller ones are such a pain.

 

[BDWoody]

Okay. Thanks. I just didn't want to get into a big discussion that goes nowhere.

Probably best not to start them then. Unlikely claims straight out of the industry propaganda playbook are often going to be challenged, because they should be.

 

[Holmz]

This is the Audio Science Review. The premise here is that what is audible can be measured, that there are limits on what can be heard and that the cost of a given piece of audio gear and its performance do not correlate. Using the term "duped" doesn't really cover it. The real issues are the limits of what is audible and also what is justified in terms of cost. No amount of bling is going to make the DCS DAC that costs £12,500 :

dCS Bartok (with headphone amp) Measurements - GoldenSound

The dCS Bartok is a 'summit fi' level DAC with a hefty pricetag of £12,500. But whilst the performance is great in many areas, others leave some questions unanswered.

goldensound.audio

. . . sound (or measure) any better than my Topping E30, which costs $130:

Topping E30 DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping E30 USB DAC. It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. Unfortunately I did not get pricing information. As soon as I get it, I will post it. EDIT: just heard back. US cost is just $129.99! This is a bit of a new look...

www.audiosciencereview.com

That has everything to do with science - displaying what can be measured and determining how those measurements relate to how something sounds.

While there are DACs that measure better than the Topping E30, the E30 bumps up against the limits of what can be heard. Like Paul Simon says, proof is the bottom line for everyone.

I am glad I got an RME versus a Topping.
Other people may want other things from a DAC, that are not measurable audible metrics… like status, heft, features, etc.

 

[unpluggged]

I am glad I got an RME versus a Topping.

FWIW, say, ADI-2 DAC FS vs Topping DX9 is not a matter of cheap vs. expensive DAC

 

[VientoB]

ADI-2 has a load of features.

 

[Robin L]

I am glad I got an RME versus a Topping.
Other people may want other things from a DAC, that are not measurable audible metrics… like status, heft, features, etc.

I'm perfectly happy with my Toppng pair (E & L 30). They are little, neat, don't take up much space on my crowded desk and sound fabulous.

 

[Holmz]

Hi, can you help me out please? I've asked this before and haven't had a clear answer. Are you saying that the RME is audibly better than any Topping? If so, is that because of the higher gain?

Just look em up. They both have been tested here, and that data is available.
They likely sound about the same.

I use the RME as an ADC, I like the display, and it is not Topping.
I don’t give a damn how a topping sounds, I just do not appreciate their warranty and customer service model.

 

[SIY]

Are you saying that the RME is audibly better than any Topping?

No, but the RME has a huge array of features, if that's important to you (it's why I got one).

 

[Robin L]

Of course I've already looked them up but I'd like to know what you're saying. You seem to be saying now that you bought the RME because of better customer service and a better warranty and that contradicts what you said "Other people may want other things from a DAC, that are not measurable audible metrics… like status, heft, features, etc.".

There were a bunch of Topping L30 headphone amps that had issues that potentially could destroy headphones. The chances of that happening in my case were slim - it appears that living in dry conditions was a source of this problem, where I live it's damp nearly all year 'round. Nonetheless, Topping swapped out my L30 for an updated version, no charge, no hassle. And I guess it's worth noting that the L30 is still the SINAD king at a combined distortion and s/n ratio of 121 db. Quite an accomplishment for a $130 piece of electronics.

 

[Robin L]

No, but the RME has a huge array of features, if that's important to you (it's why I got one).

I'd like to get a DAC with an HDMI input. But I'd also like it to have the form factor of the Topping L30 so I can stack them.