Behringer U-Phoria UMC202HD as a DAC

[Spinkicked]

Hello there.

Recently I have been thinking to buy a good headphone to enhance the sound quality of the video games that I am playing, and maybe for the upcoming Cyberpunk 2077. I had tried the DT 770 Pro 250 ohms before but due to the lack of power of Scarlett 2i2, I couldn't get what I hoped for. I loved the headphone but I didn't have an amp and I had to return all of them.

I have decided on DT 990 Pros 250 Ohms + JDS Labs Atom and a dac that I couldn't decide. Since I also play bass guitar, I considered an audio interface, but this time, something much cheaper. I don't know the difference between Dacs like Modi, Atom and audio interfaces. I wouldn't know if audio interfaces would do good as normal dacs. What kind of differences or problems would I come across in the future if I am to use an audio interface as a dac instead of other ones?

I would like to know what I will be sacrificing if I am to buy Behringer UMC202HD as a dac instead of an only purpose DAC. And how good is Behringer UMC202HD as a dac?

Thank you.

 

[JeffS7444]

Looks like Amir has already tested the similar UMC204HD:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/budget-dac-review-behringer-umc204hd.1658/
Although we tend to geek out over minutiae in measured performance, a well-designed $125 DAC shouldn't sound much different than one costing thousands, as test instruments are far more sensitive than human hearing.

 

[AnalogSteph]

There are a few places where the super low price of the UMC202HD is definitely noticeable - maximum output is kinda low (ca. 1.06 Vrms line, 1.45 Vrms headphone), substantial amounts of ultrasonic noise into the hundreds of kHz that they didn't bother to filter out (so whatever follows should be fairly immune to that), and while the preamps get the job done and manage a low EIN near max gain, you don't really want to see their distortion measurements and their maximum dynamic range is a bit limited as well (around 100 dB).

I'm a bit surprised that output on the 2i2 was inadequate - the gen 2 at least had quite a bit of max output into high impedance phones (about 2.5 Vrms @300 ohms, almost as much as the MOTU M2 or FiiO E10 territory), the current gen 3 not quite as much (about 1.55 Vrms).

Since you want to be using an external headphone amp, I may also consider some candidates that you wouldn't normally take into consideration, like the Steinberg UR22C.

Suitability for instrument input is a different story in and out of itself, e.g. some people have had issues with insufficient maximum input level on the (otherwise excellent) MOTU M2. That's probably worth researching in forums catering more to musicians.

 

[Spinkicked]

Now I lean more towards to UMC204HD. Thank you.

I have already considered the Steinberg but it is almost priced double of Behringer. I am not sure if I can afford it. The same thing goes for MOTU M2.

Scarlett 2i2 wasn't that bad but it didn't have the power that I wanted. Still, the machine was qualified for everything else with its extend of potential.

So in conclusion, I will be hearing distortion even with the headphone amp?

 

[Bob-23]

Now I lean more towards to UMC204HD. Thank you.

I have already considered the Steinberg but it is almost priced double of Behringer. I am not sure if I can afford it. The same thing goes for MOTU M2.

Scarlett 2i2 wasn't that bad but it didn't have the power that I wanted. Still, the machine was qualified for everything else with its extend of potential.

So in conclusion, I will be hearing distortion even with the headphone amp?

I've got the 204HD - Amir did, btw., a second test of the 204HD recommending dialing the input down by 3dB: "So I dialed down the input by 3 dB and performance hugely improved." Used in that way it's a good dac, no complaints, I don't hear any distortion. Headphone-out is another story - so, in any case, a separate headamp is neccessary.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ringer-umc204-hd-audio-interface-review.9856/

 

[Spinkicked]

I've got the 204HD - Amir did, btw., a second test of the 204HD recommending dialing the input down by 3dB: "So I dialed down the input by 3 dB and performance hugely improved." Used in that way it's a good dac, no complaints, I don't hear any distortion. Headphone-out is another story - so, in any case, a separate headamp is neccessary.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ringer-umc204-hd-audio-interface-review.9856/

That is superb. You have mentioned that "Headpone-out is another story". Won't I be connecting the Dac to Amp through Dac's headphone out to Amp's RCA inputs with 6,3mm to RCA cable, as it is shown in the picture?

Also by "dialing the input down by 3dB", you mean lowering the "phones" knob, right? I am really sorry for the stupid questions but these terms come to me unfamiliar and I don't want to be stepping into a dark forest.

 

[Bob-23]

That is superb. You have mentioned that "Headpone-out is another story". Won't I be connecting the Dac to Amp through Dac's headphone out to Amp's RCA inputs with 6,3mm to RCA cable, as it is shown in the picture?

Also by "dialing the input down by 3dB", you mean lowering the "phones" knob, right? I am really sorry for the stupid questions but these terms come to me unfamiliar and I don't want to be stepping into a dark forest.

204HD has two line-out (rca) which you'd connect to the amp's line-in. (So you need rca-rca cables.) Sound quality of the line-out (as so often) is much better than the one of headphone-out. That said, I do use headphone-out when listening with my earbuds to videos/podcasts, and if you don't go much above 12 o'clock, sound is ok; but i wouldn't use it for high quality recordings on good headphones.
I lower input at Pulse Audio (Linux, Laptop) from 100% (0 dB) to 90% (- 3dB). Just try it out.
Edit: The 'phones' knob is only for headphone out.

Edit: Keep the RCAs as short as possible. Within the range of, say, 0.5m to 1m it can be a cheap one, the longer they get, the more important is a good shielding 3m to 10m (which doesn't mean it has to be a special and expensive 'snake oil' cable, just a good one).

 

[Spinkicked]

Thank you for every piece of information that you have provided.

I have found a 30 cm. one that is from Cordial.

I have decided to buy the Behringer as well. DT 990 Pros + Behringer AI + JDS Labs Atom.

Too bad that I will have to pay almost the double of Atom's worth. I was going to have it shipped from US but I am afraid of the import tax might exceed the one that I will buy from UK, plus the warranty.

Thank you again and I might have to disturb you once all the items arrive if anything goes wrong

 

[Bob-23]

Thank you for every piece of information that you have provided.

I have found a 30 cm. one that is from Cordial.

I have decided to buy the Behringer as well. DT 990 Pros + Behringer AI + JDS Labs Atom.

Too bad that I will have to pay almost the double of Atom's worth. I was going to have it shipped from US but I am afraid of the import tax might exceed the one that I will buy from UK, plus the warranty.

Thank you again and I might have to disturb you once all the items arrive if anything goes wrong

You're wellcome, good choice, Cordial is a good brand, 30cm is optimal. Double the price, that's indeed a lot. If it's not the 600 Ohms dt990, there'd also be the possibility of the Objective 2 (I like that amp, built it a few times, don't sell). But I wouldn't recommend it for a 600 Ohms phone.
http://www.headnhifi.com/amplifiers/desktop-headphone-amplifiers/O2-desktop-amplifier
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/o2-design-process.html
In case you have a soldering iron they also sell diy-kits.
Edit: plus ~10 Euro or so shipping

 

[Spinkicked]

You're wellcome, good choice, Cordial is a good brand, 30cm is optimal. Double the price, that's indeed a lot. If it's not the 600 Ohms dt990, there'd also be the possibility of the Objective 2 (I like that amp, built it a few times, don't sell). But I wouldn't recommend it for a 600 Ohms phone.
http://www.headnhifi.com/amplifiers/desktop-headphone-amplifiers/O2-desktop-amplifier
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/o2-design-process.html
In case you have a soldering iron they also sell diy-kits.
Edit: plus ~10 Euro or so shipping

For example if I was to buy Schiit Heresy, that would cost me 140 Euros in total. Atom costs 160 Euros, both shipping included. Schiit has more power but they say that Atom is more of a domesticator. I need a transparent amp for DT 990s' basses and trebles to be domesticated, not power.

I looked up O2 as well, and even though I won't hear much of a difference but I heard that it is nowhere near as good as Atom. I will be spending near 380 Euros in total. I believe it is somehow worth it. If not, I can always refund them.

 

[Bob-23]

For example if I was to buy Schiit Heresy, that would cost me 140 Euros in total. Atom costs 160 Euros, both shipping included. Schiit has more power but they say that Atom is more of a domesticator. I need a transparent amp for DT 990s' basses and trebles to be domesticated, not power.

I looked up O2 as well, and even though I won't hear much of a difference but I heard that it is nowhere near as good as Atom. I will be spending near 380 Euros in total. I believe it is somehow worth it. If not, I can always refund them.

So I got you wrong, I thought you'd pay much more for the Atom. No doubt, the Atom is a good choice - according to the specs. It clearly measures better than the O2 (but, indeed, I guess you wouldn't hear the difference, a lot of improvements of today's dacs/amps are beyond audibility). It has relais, which is a good thing (but I know nothing about the longevity of them).
On the rarely mentioned plus-side of the O2, btw., is the solid metal case, instead of the plastic case of the Atom (usually providing a better shielding, but I haven't heard it's an issue here) and, to me, a big advantage is the easy repairability of O2 because it's handsoldered with through-hole components. But that doesn't help you if you don't solder yourself or don't know somebody soldering (opamps can be swapped by hand).
But go with the Atom - measurementwise it's a good amp! I think you'll enjoy your system.

 

[Spinkicked]

No no, you got me right. i pay more for Atom but I still pay more for any other 100 USD range amp because I live in Europe instead of US. Atom is just Euros more than Schiit and 10 Euros more than O2.

I didn't bother to choose metal case because I am just gonna put it on my desktop and won't be letting anyone touch it. I didn't think that it would be much of a trouble. i mean maybe I didn't think it through. i always thought, why would I need a metal case and I couldn't find enough of a reason, maybe because I was lacking experience. It may be a problem in the future.

I don't solder but yes, I know who people who does it. But even if I knew someone who could, if we didn't know how to repair, that wouldn't help much, I suppose, in my case. I believe what you are trying to say is that, O2's hardware is made more with love than others and is more durable.

What would you say about the difference between Atom and O2, soundwise, if you were to convince me to buy O2?

 

[Bob-23]

I don’t want to convince you, I’d rather suggest to think through all aspects and take an informed decision depending on your personal preferences. Maybe the Atom is adequate for you - it's specs are great. For DIYers and for people looking for longevity and repairability the O2 may be adequate.

Nwavguy (who developed O2 as an open source project) put a lot of measuring effort in creating a board and an amp with as low noise/distortion as possible. (At least) with gain 1x and gain 2.5x I’ve got a clear and transparent sound (other gain settings I haven’t tried out because I don’t need them, I once heard you may have distortion with gain 6.5x – but I‘ve never needed such a gain. Even gain 1x can be too much if you have a cd-player hooked up which outputs 2 V, I then have to employ extra attenuators.)

I would make an exception: With very power hungry phones, e.g. a 600 Ohms Beyer, I would recommend a stronger amp.

Within this limitation: To me, the standards of O2 are sufficient for transparency. I don’t think people could hear a difference between the two of them in a rigorous (blind ) AB-comparison. These comparisons are usually quite a ‘humbling’ experience, often desolving all your believes (of huge acoustic differences between devices) into nothing. But there’s a discussion on ASR in some threads about what we hear or not hear. Look at them. Opinions differ, but what would stand a rigorous AB-comparison?

Apart from what I actually hear resp. don’t hear with the O2 – I’ve got a power amp at which you can read and determine volume in dB-scales. Maybe you’ve got a such one, too. When listening on normal volume listening levels and then turning down -80dB - what remains to me is stillness.

Metal cases shield as do shielded cables. And if you’ve just accomplished an amp on a board it may catch a lot of hum and radio frequencies – and wonder: when put in a grounded metal case induced noise stops immediately. But I haven’t heard about according issues with the Atom. 2 Years ago I built an amp all in wood – with an extra copper ground plane and with extra shielded cables within the amp – that worked perfectly, too, it’s very clean. I myself was surprised.

But both the O2 and the Atom are lacking something essential which I don’t want to miss in a modern amp: Not only should they have a turn-on-delay (as in the Atom, and a somehow weaker version in the O2) but also a dc-protection circuit, protecting your phones if anything in the amp goes wrong and the output is flooded with dc – enough to kill a headphone. Such a circuit should be standard! In particular with today's expensive phones. I usually add it to my O2s and other amps. For the DIYer: Solderdude developed a very good one, and I also can recommend a very simple and intelligent circuit from AMB Laboratories, the Epsilon 12 muting cicuit).

 

[Spinkicked]

I see your point. It is not that I have to have the Atom, I am open to any suggestions and if one is going to be more durable for years than the other with almost, same quality and non recognisable difference, I would definiltely go for O2. I am not sure if I ever will be buying 600 Ohms phones, I don't think so. All I am ever going to do with these, play around with some recording, just for fun. Movies, music and single player games mostly.

And if you’ve just accomplished an amp on a board it may catch a lot of hum and radio frequencies

This part is hypothetically, right? You are saying "if", right? I am not really really sure if the plug I am using is grounded or not. I mean my computer is connected to the same plug and if there had been something wrong, it would have caught fire by now already. My father was the one who was practical with audio and electricity. He was a navy officer and his major was electric engineering. Back when I lived with my parents we had all these equalizers, big speakers from Pioneer from 80s, with woods around them. If the socket wasn't ground, he would connect one cable to the copper part of the radiator and make it grounded. I am not practical as he is. So I will really have to take the safest route even if it means sacrificing a note down with the audio. That is why I was hesitant with the Behringer but a solution was found.

What can you do to release that dc other than using a hardware?

By the way, I still haven't ordered the amp and I tend to lean more towards to O2 now. I am really not sure. The longevity factor really makes consider it all over again. If I am to choose O2, what would I be losing?

 

[Bob-23]

if one is going to be more durable for years than the other

So, I don't know how durable an Atom is goin' to be - but if some of O2's parts fail it can quite easily be repaired (by somebody owning a soldering iron or even by hand: the opamps are socketed). Diagnose of failing components is not that difficult, mostly it's either an opamp or an electrolytic capacitor (the big ones): their top is usually bulged then. Atom's relays , though a good thing, might in the Atom be the first part that fails - but that's not sure.

And if you’ve just accomplished an amp on a board it may catch a lot of hum and radio frequencies

Here you got me wrong but it's partly my fault (and it came to me over the day when thinking over my writing that the conditional 'if' should have been a temporal 'when' [in German both words are the same: 'wenn']). I only tried to explain - from a practical viewpoint - what the benefits of a (shielded) metal case can be. I meant: when I build an amp, and have just accomplished soldering the board, and run a test: it may catch a lot of noise, because it's not yet in the shielded metal case. - You shouldn't have any grounding problems with your setting. (And in our case, it wouldn't be the 'earth ground' your father established with the radiator - but that's another story.)

What can you do to release that dc other than using a hardware?

These 'dc accidents' (e.g. failing opamp) are rare, but Murphy's first law contains a grain of salt: it may happen. As long as one's phones are cheap, one may live with it (as I said, in my amps I added such a circuit). In that regard O2 should in principle be a bit 'safer' than Atom because O2 is 'ac-coupled' whereas Atom is fully 'dc-coupled', letting pass-through all the dc, say, also the potential one from (a failure in) the dac (and that would even get amplified), and, of course, it's own dc. O2 has coupling capacitors which block dc, only O2's last stage is not followed by a capacitor. But capacitors are not the best way of dealing with the problem: they only (fully) block when full, i.e.: they would let pass the first 'wave' of dc, until the cap is charged. A good muting circuit with good relays is the only solution - and should be standard.

Edit: O2's case is grounded by being connected at one single spot to signal input ground. Induced noise gets thus shorted to ground.

 

[Spinkicked]

These informations carry me more towards to O2. I would be buying from a closer retailer as well. If I were in US, I wouldn't think this much. I heard that audio companies have great customer support but to what extent they can provide detailed support if something to happen. Better to get support from Switzerland, I suppose.

I will never buy a 600 ohms phones and if I ever do, I suppose it means that I am moving towards something more serious and that means upgrade for me. If am to buy a low ohm phones, for example: Philips Fidelio x2, O2's output impedance is good enough for low impedance headphones. Not as good as Atom's but still considerable.

Two things though. O2's description doesn't specify the mW. You have mentioned that O2 wouldn't be strong enough to drive a 600 ohms but what kind of volume loss are we talking about when driving a 250 ohms in comparison with Atom?

Secondly, I read that O2 uses really old parts when building the amp. Does it effect the sound quality or anything else?

 

[Bob-23]

O2's description doesn't specify the mW

Available figures: for 150 Ohms phones O2: 355mW ; Atom 502 mW. For 33 Ohm phones O2: 613mW; Atom 1W.
https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/o2-headphone-amp.html
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/o2-details.html
Output impedance is very low in both amps O2 0.54Ohm; Atom O.1 Ohm. (I like a bit of output impedance as an additional protection layer against shorts at the output.)

O2 uses really old parts

?? maybe it was meant that O2 uses through-hole components - they are not worse than surface mount components!

Better to get support from Switzerland

Head'n'Hifi is in Germany now. (Afair 1 year warranty.)

Edit: The used opamps are, indeed, 'old' - but they are proven technology. Read in the following the chapter about opamps.
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op-amp-measurements.html

 

[Spinkicked]

This actually means that the O2 can actually drive even the 600 ohms phones pretty well, let alone driving a 250 ohms. I may be using the volume knob around 2-3 o'clock poisition with DT 990 Pro with O2.

I have no complaint about the output impedance as it is perfect they way it is. I just wanted to point out that it is higher than Atom's. That is it.

So, that is why you have said that it is easier to fix O2 with soldering because of usage of THC.

 

[Bob-23]

So, that is why you have said that it is easier to fix O2 with soldering because of usage of THC

Yes, that way it's also possible to change the prefixed gain setting if you find out that the setting you ordered is not optimal. (It may even be sufficient to simply cut off 2 resistors in case you want gain 1x). These were great times when you could repair or even remodel/reconstruct an amp easily. O2 comes with 2.5x and 6.5x gain, it's possible to order another setting by demand (and plus cost ~ 5 Euro).

Edit: Some readings:
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/09/all-about-gain.html
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/09/more-power.html

 

[Spinkicked]

O2 comes with 2.5x and 6.5x gain, it's possible to order another setting by demand (and plus cost ~ 5 Euro).

Yes, I have realized that. That is the standart one. What setting would you suggest for my setup?