Audio Science Review

[Jimbob54]

I think if people had come on here and been sensible and said measurements are important but also a listening test, as we all know engineers do both when designing hifi, then I would have got a better sense of the credible use of ASR. I think this site would have wider scope. I don’t decry that probably goes on but my issue is those that don’t look at it from both measuring and subjective sides which strikes me to be the best way. For instance power handling in an amp, slew rate and damping factor are all going to have an effect. But even from a common sense view there are so many variables, you really have to try it too.

But the sense I’m getting is most people on here buy the hifi without use of a comparative personal and subjective views and based on measurements alone, and I think this is really damaging to impress on others that this is how they should buy too. To put a dac at the same quality as what others may know as better to someone who is yet to make their mind up - maybe a newbie - is incredibly damaging to manufacturers and the industry when they are steered differently to their own views. I get people telling me on my YouTube comments that this dac measures really badly before they have tried it which is crazy. There is also the point that trying to use measurments and other interpretations of them to decide what sounds best is incredibly fraught with error.

Im fully aware of the salesmanship that goes on in hifi and sometimes people try and sell you all sorts of ridiculously priced stuff that performs little better than much cheaper gear. I’m all for calling it out which is my policy if i’d otherwise loose my credibility. I tell manufacturers this because for me it works both ways - if I was to say something bad is good, which I think many would think, it effects the sales of those honest firms selling cheaper more competitive products. But I just feel that lots of the people here are extending the valid mistrust in many or most hifi reviews (where they do shill for manufacturers on bad products) way too far. The full measuring approach is therefore symptomatic.

"I get people telling me on my YouTube comments that this dac measures really badly before they have tried it which is crazy"

Does them trying the unit change the measurements?

 

[Simon 13th]

And a few more.

To be susceptible to bias is to be human.

View attachment 118967

These are types cognitive bias, that means they come from thought, processing and memory by the very use of cognition as a word. They are interpretation. The sound or smell is the same. It doesn’t effect what we smell or hear. It how’s we use it to decide.

x hears stereo system - he hears x - that isn’t any good (my hifi performs better) ie the cognition

y hears stereo system - he hears x - that is good as I’ve never heard one like that ie the cognition.

** all things equal to good hearing acuity.

people who are more susceptible to bias and less alive to it will succumb more than those that aren’t, because we have power to recognise our flaws too.
isn’t this just common sense

 

[voodooless]

To put a dac at the same quality as what others may know as better to someone who is yet to make their mind up - maybe a newbie - is incredibly damaging to manufacturers and the industry when they are steered differently to their own views.

So? Who cares? Why should we care for the manufacturers? We are not her to cater to them? We are here to give objective data on that equipment. And if that data shows that audible differences are unlikely then that is the reality

I get people telling me on my YouTube comments that this dac measures really badly before they have tried it which is crazy.

So? If they are correct, what is the problem?

There is also the point that trying to use measurments and other interpretations of them to decide what sounds best is incredibly fraught with error.

I would say the same if I were in the business of doing the exact opposite.

We’re also still waiting on your proof that you can discern the difference between those DAC’s

 

[Simon 13th]

So are you saying that Peter Walker was wrong to not perform listening tests on Quad amplifier designs?

I suppose that’s for him to decide but it’s not how most do it.

 

[voodooless]

The sound or smell is the same. It doesn’t effect what we smell or hear. It how’s we use it to decide.

Case and point!

 

[Katji]

BLOCK /Ignore

Another string of semi-literate illogical...stuff.

 

[Simon 13th]

So? Who cares? Why should we care for the manufacturers? We are not her to cater to them? We are here to give objective data on that equipment. And if that data shows that audible differences are unlikely then that is the re


So? If they are correct, what is the problem?

[qoute]There is also the point that trying to use measurments and other interpretations of them to decide what sounds best is incredibly fraught with error.

I would say the same if I were in the business of doing the exact opposite.

We’re also still waiting on your proof that you can discern the difference between those DAC’s[/QUOTE]

I think everyone has a bit of a responsibility. It’s a small niche industry. If an ASR-er starts craping on a dac or what not by specs (that an equal number think is really good, maybe a dragonfly) or someone yet to make mind up, then it effects sales - it effects price and it effects you.

 

[voodooless]

I think everyone has a bit of a responsibility.

Yes, to keep people away of overpriced, overhyped and sub-par products! The only difference are the criteria we use.

 

[Simon 13th]

Yes, to keep people away of overpriced, overhyped and sub-par products!

Yeah exactly that’s me mate

 

[Koeitje]

Nah, getting a good load of his bs here now. Unfortunately.

Like you can read anything with all the ads, begging for donations and pop-ups.

 

[JustJones]

The sales of anything audioquest doesn't AFFECT me.

 

[Simon 13th]

So? Who cares? Why should we care for the manufacturers? We are not her to cater to them? We are here to give objective data on that equipment. And if that data shows that audible differences are unlikely then that is the reality


So? If they are correct, what is the problem?



I would say the same if I were in the business of doing the exact opposite.

We’re also still waiting on your proof that you can discern the difference between those DAC’s

the problem is they are trashing my credible opinions and they are also turning other people off from buying on the auspices of being technical measurement-ists when it is conceivable the buyer might decide not to try it, where otherwise he might and would have bought what he thought was a better product.

 

[JustJones]

the problem is they are trashing my credible opinions and they are also turning other people off from buying on the auspices of being technical measurement-ists when it is conceivable the buyer might decide not to try it, where otherwise he might and would have bought what he thought was a better product.

Why do you assume your opinions are credible or more so than mine?

 

[Simon 13th]

The sales of anything audioquest doesn't AFFECT me.

of course it does. It affects the market capitalisation of the industry. The cables prices affect the sales of hifi and vice versa. bringing down audiophile cable prices gets more people onboard To buying HiFi. cheaper Dragonflies means by more demand means the measured dac you want to buy comes down in price.

 

[Phorize]

I suppose that’s for him to decide but it’s not how most do it.

To put the question differently-what specifically would you expect to detect in a listening test that could not be picked up in measurements?

 

[ahofer]

no because taste is different to perception, which is what you are talking about. taste is the same, if I’m eating it in a meadow or a dark cellar. The degree to which you perceive it to be better depends on your susceptibility to be gullible as to difference. put a crap dish in a nice plate v a good dish in a chipped rubbish plate, wouldn’t fool some.

Nononono! There is very little evidence that awareness can eliminate bias. In some case, expertise and subject knowledge actually make it worse.

 

[voodooless]

the problem is they are trashing my credible opinions

They are just that: opinions. Everybody can have them. You don’t have a monopoly

and they are also turning other people off from buying on the auspices of being technical measurement-ists when it is conceivable the buyer might decide not to try it, where otherwise he might and would have bought what he thought was a better product.

people can describe for themselves how to spend their money, what facts to deem important or what opinions to view as credible.. if they can’t they deserve whatever they get.

 

[amirm]

To put a dac at the same quality as what others may know as better to someone who is yet to make their mind up - maybe a newbie - is incredibly damaging to manufacturers and the industry when they are steered differently to their own views.

So you are more interested in protecting the industry and manufactures than end consumer? That fact that we show poor engineering in a device is a bad idea in your view? But throwing out praise based on price, looks and other misconceptions is good for the consumer?

You really need a strong reset on what your priorities are. If you are making infomercials for companies and industry, then you are doing good. Anything else is anti-consumer.

 

[tw99]

I think everyone has a bit of a responsibility. It’s a small niche industry. If an ASR-er starts craping on a dac or what not by specs (that an equal number think is really good, maybe a dragonfly) or someone yet to make mind up, then it effects sales - it effects price and it effects you.

So would it be OK then if I put up a subjective Youtube review crapping on a product ? It's just the factual content you're objecting to ?

Honestly, you are making no sense whatsoever.

 

[JustJones]

Audiophiles have been shown cables make no to very infinitesimal differences for decades yet the prices keep going up and they keep buying them.