ATC speakers / Monitors

[Ilkless]

He used to be a distributor. I’m guessing that the business relationship went sour and now he seems to take any opportunity to bad mouth them. In the grand scheme of things I’m sure ATC are not too concerned about one small retailer and his limited opinion. They are still a going concern, providing employment for dozens of people and monitors for audio professionals making the music we listen to.

Conspiratorial ad hominems don't detract from technical critiques of ATC speakers that fanboys fail to understand

 

[caught gesture]

Conspiratorial ad hominems don't detract from technical critiques of ATC speakers that fanboys fail to understand

I’m no fanboy of ATC, so pot and kettle. I’m all in favour of data driven evaluation so in agreement with you on that.

 

[Purité Audio]

He used to be a distributor. I’m guessing that the business relationship went sour and now he seems to take any opportunity to bad mouth them. In the grand scheme of things I’m sure ATC are not too concerned about one small retailer and his limited opinion. They are still a going concern, providing employment for dozens of people and monitors for audio professionals making the music we listen to.

If you are referring to me, you are absolutely correct.
When we first represented Kii who were the first contemporary active design, potential customers both pro and domestic would often say that the Kiis were good but didn’t have the resolution of the ATC dome midrange.
I approached ATC, Ben Lilly advised starting with the active 50s, they were yew and looked smart in the classic vein.
Measured, positioned them in the ‘best ‘ placement, arranged the Kiis around them, ( obviously the Kiis are adjustable so could be placed more or less anywhere). Around the same time Dutch&Dutch released their 8C, so we had two contemporary actives to compare to.
In direct comparison to the 8Cs/Kiis the ATCs were just a bit disappointing the extra resolution of the midrange is just a myth, the Kiis/8Cs were less coloured, their cardioid FR made them simply clearer, one just heard more.
The ATCs although physically larger had far less extension, and were far more expensive.
We had them for a couple of years ATC rearranged their retail sales and we were kicked off, which was fair because we didn’t sell any.

Keith

 

[goat76]

I’m guessing that the business relationship went sour and now he seems to take any opportunity to bad mouth them.

If you are referring to me, you are absolutely correct.

 

[574stereo]

I find it hard to believe that’s the whole story. Keith definitely has a bee in his bonnet about these speakers even though they’re so well liked by most other people and seems to burn a huge amount of energy bad-mouthing them with no real measurements to back up his claims.

 

[Purité Audio]

That is the whole story, I don’t ‘bad mouth’ them they are still solid loudspeakers but they are not state of the art and that is explicit from their measurements.
One always imagines that you have the ‘best’ until you hear something better.
Keith

 

[574stereo]

I think you need to go and re-read your posts. All your contributions on this thread have a snipey veiled sarcastic tone. To suddenly say ‘can’t innovate’ etc etc, yet don’t you post similar negative responses whenever Neumann or Revel speakers are discussed. A speaker doesn’t have to have cardioid low frequency dispersion in the low end in order to be a well executed and great sounding design.


Not a great look for a distributor or salesperson to be honest…

 

[Geert]

Why should someone need to complain about Neumann not innovating? Are you aware of the amount of speakers they released in recent years on how they perform (objectively)?

 

[574stereo]

Exactly, incremental improvements in performance, no need to radically change their designs as they were already very good. The same goes with ATC, bar a few models in the past, their driver engineering and integration has always been top-notch and incrementally moves forwards over time (they just don’t announce a new model every time something changes). If you opened up an SCM50 from 2005 or even 2015 vs one from recent years you’d find quite a few differences.



Seems to me like all this hoo-haa is based off a measurement of one model, which doesn’t exist any more and bears virtually no resemblance to their modern designs. That’s not exactly great scientific evidence to back up sweeping negative statements about a manufacturer’s entire product line.


Combine this with some incredibly poorly informed statements about the music industry and how nobody working in it seems to want or need high quality monitoring solutions… certainly seems like a lot of the negative posters in this thread are living in an echo chamber with their head under a rock.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

Why should someone need to complain about Neumann not innovating? Are you aware of the amount of speakers they released in recent years on how they perform (objectively)?

Neumanns biggest innovation in speakers was to acquire Klein&Hummel.

Since then I call Neumanns monitors incremental refinements rather than innovations.

Perhaps their room correction software could be considered an innovation. It’s also been delayed and the software somewhat problematic in its development.

 

[prestigetone]

Neumanns biggest innovation in speakers was to acquire Klein&Hummel.

Since then I call Neumanns monitors incremental refinements rather than innovations.

Perhaps their room correction software could be considered an innovation. It’s also been delayed and the software somewhat problematic in its development.

This is true. They were essentially the same speaker that was updated. k+h used to be really expensive high end speakers and the acquisition allowed them to keep the cost basically the same while reducing manufacturing costs, keeping the core product the same and evolving it. Kind of wish they still had aluminum chassis.

 

[574stereo]

There are some changes in ethos between K+H and Neumann in terms of the electronics. Neumann unfortunately tend to use rather basic amplification, but that’s to be expected given the affordability of their speakers. The overall bang for your buck with a Neumann KH150 etc is superb but it’s quite apparent when you sit them next to some of the more high end offerings that corners have been cut.

Not meaning this to bad-mouth them. They’re excellent speakers especially for the money…

 

[thewas]

There are some changes in ethos between K+H and Neumann in terms of the electronics. Neumann unfortunately tend to use rather basic amplification, but that’s to be expected given the affordability of their speakers. The overall bang for your buck with a Neumann KH150 etc is superb but it’s quite apparent when you sit them next to some of the more high end offerings that corners have been cut.

In which objective data can these claimed limitations be observed?

 

[574stereo]

In which objective data can these claimed limitations be observed?

For an objective perspective on this you'll have to do do a bench test of the amplifier outputs. The Neumann amp designs have high levels of high-order distortion when compared to a lot of other amplifiers. Don't have anything I can post here, sorry. You'll have to do your own tests.

As far as subjective perceptions (which are not banned on this forum), it's one of a large number of things which contributes to the differences between (for example) a KH310 vs an SCM25. Both very good speakers but the SCM25 is almost always preferred by users than KH310s in subjective listening tests.

 

[thewas]

For an objective perspective on this you'll have to do do a bench test of the amplifier outputs. The Neumann amp designs have high levels of high-order distortion when compared to a lot of other amplifiers. Don't have anything I can post here, sorry. You'll have to do your own tests.

Sorry but it doesn't work this way, you made a claim so you have to prove it. All existing total distortion measurements (which in the end is what we hear) of Neumann monitors show the opposite, namely rather state of the art in low values.

As far as subjective perceptions (which are not banned on this forum), it's one of a large number of things which contributes to the differences between (for example) a KH310 vs an SCM25. Both very good speakers but the SCM25 is almost always preferred by users than KH310s in subjective listening tests.

Another anecdotal claim. From existing members here, I know only of one member who had compared them and now owns a Neumann.

 

[574stereo]

Sorry but it doesn't work this way, you made a claim so you have to prove it. All existing total distortion measurements (which in the end is what we hear) of Neumann monitors show the opposite, namely rather state of the art in low values.

What do you mean 'it' doesn't work? Or you 'have' to? You're saying that unless someone backs up every single statement they make with a measurement, they get bullied into submission by people like yourself? This is a publicly accessible forum, anyone can post.

If this was a 'strict' forum rule, then Purite has a lot of measurements to be posting to back up his non-stop claims about. In fact this forum is full of unsubstantiated claims. The fact you'll go after a new poster like me but not him shows you either have a brand bias against ATC or favouritism amongst certain members (I suspect it's a bit of both knowing a bit about the culture of this forum).

Another anecdotal claim. From existing members here, I know only of one member who had compared them and now owns a Neumann.

If you only want to do web forum searches to tell yourself what decisions people in the real world are making then I guess that's your own decision. I'm not going to publicly post a list of names of engineers I know and work with. By the way I own both Neumann and ATC speakers.

 

[Purité Audio]

Not easy being a fanboy.
Keith

 

[574stereo]

Could you explain this post please Keith?

 

[Purité Audio]

When one likes a manufacturer so very much that it blinkers one to the objective truth.
What is needed of course is some klippel /spin measurements of ATC designs.
Keith

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Not easy being a fanboy.
Keith

Probably quite easy to be a Taylor Swift fanboy Keith!