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Asking for donations for my test/review website (using Klippel products)

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hardisj

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#1
** I ran this by Amir and Thomas and they were OK with me posting this here since we all are fans of as much data as we can get and I will be sharing all my reviews here**

As many of you probably know by now, I run a review/test site. I've been posting about it a bit over in my thread (here). I quit testing for a number of years but recently started back again. I used to use Klippel products for my tests so I reached out to them again.

Well, I got a quote from them this morning. As expected, however, it’s not cheap. Regardless, I’m moving forward and will be sending payment shortly. But I would really appreciate any donations from the community that I can get to help me offset those costs and, namely, to help fund some of the other things I would like to purchase to help me make my testing more efficient and accurate (like building an automated turntable or the like, using a DIY CNC to help cut baffle templates for drive unit testing, purchasing a high-SPL capable microphone for high output distortion testing, etc).

If you don’t mind helping out, you can use the link below to contribute to via PayPal (they take 3%, I’m OK with that):

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/contribute/

One of my car audio buddies also set up this GoFundMe page here which I thought was wicked cool of him to do so if you'd rather support that way than through PayPal here's the link:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-har...m=copy_link-tip&utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet


Edit:
Someone asked what I'd be doing that's different from what Amir is providing and to address that, I made this post:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...site-using-klippel-products.11761/post-343711


That's a fair question.



First off let me state a few things:
I've been using Klippel products since 2010. I quit testing for a number of years. You can read about that here.
I am not looking to "compete" with Amir. I am simply trying to continue doing what I have been doing for years. Amir's focus is on loudspeaker measurement. I don't have a 'focus', per se. My goal is to provide as much data as I can on everything from the loudspeaker to the raw drive units that make them up. No one else on the internet is providing raw data for drive units as comprehensively as I am. I can absolutely guarantee no one is providing large signal analysis to the public, either. No one. I know this because some companies have come to me to ask if I'll do it for them (and I do not) because they don't want to pay Warkwyn or Red Rock Acoustics to do it for them. Between myself and Amir I think we can do a lot of damage. Well, not literally, unless you guys want to send me speakers with the 'OK' to test them until they explode. :D

Getting on to my "project", let me lay out the similarities of what Amir and I are doing.

Amir:
Loudspeaker testing of:
  • Full CEA-2034 capability from a fully automated process
    • High resolution and approximately/better than anechoic
  • Harmonic Distortion
  • CSD

Me:
Loudspeaker testing of:


Those are the similarities. And that's where it ends. Now, this is some of what I'll be doing that Amir is currently not capable of providing:
  • IMD (using DIS Pro Module)
  • Max SPL (using the Tone-Burst Module)
  • Loudspeaker raw drive unit testing. (using the below methods)
    • Pulling the drive units from DUTs and testing them to identify issues via the methods below
  • Testing drive units that you can purchase from Parts-Express, Madisound, etc using some of the above and the below
    • Thiele-Small Parameters (using LPM module)
    • Large signal parameters (using LSI module)
    • Linear Xmax using a laser for maximum accuracy (using LSI module)
  • Various 'studies'
    • Mostly TBD but for example, I did a study on the effect of the midrange cone's movement on the tweeter frequency response in this Kef Q100
    • How do the various distortion components effect our hearing (using the SIM-AUR module; something no one else is doing, I'll add)
  • "Virtual Demo": Speakers will be set up in my room and I will play a sample of music through them while recording the sound via a binaural microphone setup at the seated position. All tests will target the same average SPL at a listening distance of 6 to 8 feet. This "demo" is intended to give listeners an idea of the sound characteristics of a speaker. It will absolutely not substitute someone demoing the speakers in their own room but it should give them an idea of the characteristics such as directivity, tonality, etc.

A fine example of some of the above can be found in my review of the Rythmik FG12 subwoofer. To brag a bit, I can honestly say that I have never seen a more thorough or qualitative review of any loudspeaker by anyone published for all to see to date. No one has taken a subwoofer and provided data on the raw driver (including T/S parameters, large-signal (again, no one has the LSI that is posting freely) and FR/HD data), provided objective data on the various settings as well as a writeup explaining the benefits of these in the manner I have. I'm not one to brag, but since you asked, that's where I feel I have done far more than anyone to date. I plan to conduct future tests in the same manner. :)

In short, I've got a lot of tools manufacturers don't have. And I've got the passion and dedication to provide data that you guys didn't even know you needed until you got it. ;) And again, I am not competing with anything Amir does. More data is good for everyone.


- Erin

As I've already stated, I am not begging for money. I simply enjoy this stuff and my only net gain is potentially getting to play with some cool toys now and again if a member loans them for testing. At this point, I'm thankful for any help I can get but I knew full well what I was getting in to when I started down this path so I'm not about to whine if people don't kick in for it. Just know that if you are able to help out that it's going to a good cause and is absolutely appreciated.
 
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hardisj

hardisj

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Thread Starter #2
FWIW, this is a list of everything I got:

1 DA2 - Distortion Analyzer 2
Item No.: 2000-002 processor unit for all modules (incl. cable set) Refurbished unit Revision 2.1

2 LPM - Linear Parameter Measurement
Item No.: 1000-400 identification of linear electrical and mechanical parameters

3 LSI Woofer + Box - Large Signal Identification Woofer + Box for DA2
Item No.: 1000-230 identification of linear, nonlinear and thermal parameters of woofer drivers in free air, sealed and vented enclosures

4 LSI Tweeter - Large Signal Identification Tweeter for DA2
Item No.: 1000-220 identification of linear, nonlinear and thermal parameters of tweeters, micro speakers, compression drivers in free air

5 TRF Pro - Transfer Function Measurement Professional
Item No.: 1000-910 measurement of transfer function, harmonic distortion and rub & buzz

6 DIS Pro - 3D Distortion Measurement Professional
Item No.: 1000-810 DIS features + measurement of HI2 and amplitude intermodulation distortion

7 TBM - Tone Burst Measurement
Item No.: 1001-109 peak SPL measurements using tone burst signals (CEA2010)

8 PWT Pro - Power Test Professional
Item No.: 1000-700 power testing with temperature measurement and transducer identification

9 Pro Driver Stand
Item No.: 2211-002 transducer fixture with laser and microphone positioning (incl. laser calibration spacer), Rev. 1.5

10 Laser Set ANR 1282
Item No.: 2102-010 +/- 20mm, for woofer + midrange (incl. Controller ANR 5132)

11 Mic 17 IEPE 1/4"
Item No.: 2400-103

12 Cable; BNC - BNC, 2m
Item No.: 2300-106 Microphone cable, BNC male to BNC male, 2m, low capacitance coaxial cable type, blue

13 Mic Holder; MK10, for 1/2" Mics, fixed
Item No.: 2400-206 fixed Mic Holder for 1/2" mics, made of plastic, 1/4" mounting thread

14 Manufacturer Calibration DA, PA, PM8
Item No.: 6000-001 DA, PM8 or PA calibration with formal certificate, recommended every 2 years
 
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hardisj

hardisj

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Thread Starter #3
The one thing I'm excited to have is the Pro Test Stand. It has connection points for the mic and laser and will fit various size drive units.
Edit: This is used for getting T/S parameters and namely linear xmax. Not for Frequency Response related measurements. A baffle will be used for FR measurements of drive-units like I've always done.

 
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hardisj

hardisj

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Thread Starter #4
And since I know I'll be asked at some point what this stuff costs, here's the price list.
https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kl...em/PDF/KLIPPEL_Analyzer_System_Price-List.pdf

Some of the things I purchased aren't on the price list as they have since been updated so you would have to get a quote. My contact at Klippel was able to locate me a couple used parts to help me pad my costs a little. I won't get in to my exact costs because, frankly, that's not information I want out on the internet. But, if you look at the sheet, list price for what I purchased is ~$45,000 USD (41k EUR) for everything. So, yea....
 
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jtwrace

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#5
That's hardcore :oops:
 
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#6
How would you extract frequency-dependent inductance? The L2R2 model that Klippel used never seemed to work well over a broad frequency range, nor did it seem well motivated as a physical model.
 
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hardisj

hardisj

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Thread Starter #7
How would you extract frequency-dependent inductance? The L2R2 model that Klippel used never seemed to work well over a broad frequency range, nor did it seem well motivated as a physical model.
To be honest, it's not something I've thought about. Frankly, when you say "frequency-dependent inductance" all I can think of is an impedance sweep with the woofer fixed out vs fixed in (similar to how I did my Kef concentric woofer-position vs HF response measurements). I'm not sure if that's at all what you're referencing. If you don't mind giving me some examples via PM I'd be happy to discuss it with you and maybe come up with a way that is useful for providing what you're looking for. I'm always eager to learn and expand my own knowledge. Thanks for the question!
 
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hardisj

hardisj

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Thread Starter #8
hardisj said:
To help with accuracy and efficiency, I also hope to build a dedicated "test" space in my attic. I have about 11x17 feet that I'll need to floor, wall, and insulate to make it a test room.
I just wanted to note something real quick since I've had a couple PMs about it.


I do want to make clear that while the dedicated test space in my attic is my goal, without *significant* contributions I don't see it becoming a reality. I've already spent thousands on the measurement equipment. I figure the attic conversion would be $4-5k in materials alone (wood, insulation, some wiring) and I am completely tapped out. Heck, I still need to order an amplifier for the testing. So with that said, I just wanted to make that clear so people don't get upset when they see me testing in my garage again. But if any of you happen to live in North Alabama and are a general contractor and can help me make it a reality then by all means, let's do this. Seriously.
 

JohnPM

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#9
How would you extract frequency-dependent inductance? The L2R2 model that Klippel used never seemed to work well over a broad frequency range, nor did it seem well motivated as a physical model.
According to their app note they offer the Leach, Wright and Thorborg models as well. Probably more important is dealing with the frequency-dependence of compliance, where the Ritter three parameter model is provided.
 
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hardisj

hardisj

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Thread Starter #10
Just wanted to take a minute and thank everyone who has contributed. I really do appreciate it and it is a nice feeling that people are willing to support some knucklehead on the internet providing them with data.

I also wanted to provide an update on some of my “wants” in my OP…
I have a friend who is going to help me with building an automated microphone setup. So no more need for a turntable.
I have given up the dream of turning my attic space in to a dedicated test room. However, in lieu of this I have come up with a reasonable solution at least for drive-unit measurements: I will be using the partition wall in my garage to act as a quasi-infinite baffle. I won’t get in to the details because I am not sure how many folks care at this point.
For loudspeaker testing, it will likely still be done in my garage but I’m hoping to have a way to remedy some of my main concerns when it comes to far-field testing. I’ll post more on this later once I’ve gotten verification.


I will still need to purchase:
1) An amplifier to use for drive unit and loudspeaker testing. I would love to go with Benchmark amps but I don’t think that’s going to be at all feasible due to cost. Most likely a Crown digital amp.
2) A “golden reference” loudspeaker set. I am leaning toward the ELAC DBR 6.2 due to price and assumed performance. I have contacted Amir to see if he would be interested in testing these, unless someone else has already sent him a pair.
Both of the above will also go toward the “loudspeaker demo” portion of my YouTube reviews (I’ll be using binaural mics to capture the in-room sound and uploading the recordings to give you guys a ‘flavor’ of the speakers’ performance and hope to amass enough reviews to make it fairly comprehensive so you can even compare against other speakers).


If anyone can help out with the above (maybe you happen to be a dealer and can help with price) or if any of you guys out there in TV land find merit in contributing via PayPal (link in the OP) to help, I really and truly would appreciate it. No matter what, I’m going to do this. I won’t sing a swan song about paying for it; it was my choice do this stuff anyway. But any help would be appreciated.
 
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hardisj

hardisj

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Thread Starter #11
2) A “golden reference” loudspeaker set. I am leaning toward the ELAC DBR 6.2 due to price and assumed performance. I have contacted Amir to see if he would be interested in testing these, unless someone else has already sent him a pair.
FWIW, I just ordered a pair of Elac DBR62 bookshelf speakers and am having them shipped directly to Amir. I wanted to find a reasonably priced speaker to use for my own comparison reviews and thought these would be worth the risk at $599/pair. Figured I might as well let Amir review them so everyone could see how they do so he'll get them before I do. And hopefully I can compare his results vs mine when I test them to help identify any errors in my testing methodology. And I'll conduct other measurements as well, assuming the results indicate reasonable performance and I don't instead return them.
 
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hardisj

hardisj

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Thread Starter #20
I don't understand the purpose of your project.
How would your measurements differ from Amir's?
That's a fair question.



First off let me state a few things:
I've been using Klippel products since 2010. I quit testing for a number of years. You can read about that here.
I am not looking to "compete" with Amir. I am simply trying to continue doing what I have been doing for years. Amir's focus is on loudspeaker measurement. I don't have a 'focus', per se. My goal is to provide as much data as I can on everything from the loudspeaker to the raw drive units that make them up. No one else on the internet is providing raw data for drive units as comprehensively as I am. I can absolutely guarantee no one is providing large signal analysis to the public, either. No one. I know this because some companies have come to me to ask if I'll do it for them (and I do not) because they don't want to pay Warkwyn or Red Rock Acoustics to do it for them.
Amir is capable of more throughput of loudspeakers due to his automated system. My quantity won't be as high but my quality definitely will be and I'll have more variety in my tests because I'm interested in things outside of just the loudspeaker itself. Between myself and Amir I think we can do a lot of damage. Well, not literally, unless you guys want to send me speakers with the 'OK' to test them until they explode. :D

Getting on to my "project", let me lay out the similarities of what Amir and I are doing.

Amir:
Loudspeaker testing of:
  • Full CEA-2034 capability from a fully automated process
    • High resolution and approximately/better than anechoic
  • Harmonic Distortion
  • CSD

Me:
Loudspeaker testing of:


Those are the similarities. And that's where it ends. Now, this is some of what I'll be doing that Amir is currently not capable of providing:
  • IMD (using DIS Pro Module)
  • Max SPL (using the Tone-Burst Module)
  • Loudspeaker raw drive unit testing. (using the below methods)
    • Pulling the drive units from DUTs and testing them to identify issues via the methods below
  • Testing drive units that you can purchase from Parts-Express, Madisound, etc using some of the above and the below
    • Thiele-Small Parameters (using LPM module)
    • Large signal parameters (using LSI module)
    • Linear Xmax using a laser for maximum accuracy (using LSI module)
  • Various 'studies'
    • Mostly TBD but for example, I did a study on the effect of the midrange cone's movement on the tweeter frequency response in this Kef Q100
    • How do the various distortion components effect our hearing (using the SIM-AUR module; something no one else is doing, I'll add)
  • "Virtual Demo": Speakers will be set up in my room and I will play a sample of music through them while recording the sound via a binaural microphone setup at the seated position. All tests will target the same average SPL at a listening distance of 6 to 8 feet. This "demo" is intended to give listeners an idea of the sound characteristics of a speaker. It will absolutely not substitute someone demoing the speakers in their own room but it should give them an idea of the characteristics such as directivity, tonality, etc.

A fine example of some of the above can be found in my review of the Rythmik FG12 subwoofer. To brag a bit, I can honestly say that I have never seen a more thorough or qualitative review of any loudspeaker by anyone published for all to see to date. No one has taken a subwoofer and provided data on the raw driver (including T/S parameters, large-signal (again, no one has the LSI that is posting freely) and FR/HD data), provided objective data on the various settings as well as a writeup explaining the benefits of these in the manner I have. I'm not one to brag, but since you asked, that's where I feel I have done far more than anyone to date. I plan to conduct future tests in the same manner. :)

In short, I've got a lot of tools manufacturers don't have. And I've got the passion and dedication to provide data that you guys didn't even know you needed until you got it. ;) And again, I am not competing with anything Amir does. More data is good for everyone.


- Erin
 
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