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Are crossovers in speakers overrated?

JSmith

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they are usually blends of metals. But the cable market has everything in between as well.
Unsure what you mean here... take copper speaker wire, basically it's CCA or OFC. When copper is made into a conductor, the end result is OFC (i.e. the process removes the oxygen) which is basically all copper wiring.


JSmith
 

Blumlein 88

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Science is not just full stops. It's full stops and then further inquiry. Measuring devices don't tell you everything, they tell you only what you are measuring. People hear differences, a lot of it is in their heads granted but there is still things to learn. Science is primitive at times in relation to our brains but it does improve all the time as well.
You need to up your game, way behind the curve here. Not even an interesting discussion.
 

DonR

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Science is not just full stops. It's full stops and then further inquiry. Measuring devices don't tell you everything, they tell you only what you are measuring. People hear differences, a lot of it is in their heads granted but there is still things to learn. Science is primitive at times in relation to our brains but it does improve all the time as well.
Double blind ABX testing reveals that people cannot hear differences reliably in speaker cables. Science has advanced a lot further than you think.
 

thewas

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Never heard a decent sounding piezo tweeter. Yes those things can be wired directly as you say they act as their own crossover.
Most piezo tweeters have quite high distortion and poorly crossed, it can be done well though using a decent one and well adapted crossover as shown by a German DIY loudspeaker magazine.
 

escksu

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Other than the obvious speaker protection function on tweeters or midrange drivers of course.

Some guys swear they are the most important part of any speaker, yet I've had a few speaker designs which have had no or minimal crossovers and they have been some of the best speakers I've owned.

But then there are others who can't get over it as being gospel that good crossover design is not just essential it is everything.

With the infinite amount of designs out there and yet everyone has their take on crossovers it's no surprise people are confused.

And then there's the active guys or DSP affiliates who say that is everything.

I've never had a headphone that's had a crossover either and most have all been able to be eq'd to sound good.

Some of the BS ( Bad Science :D ) behind crossovers frustrates me.

What do you think?

Crossover does more than just speaker protection. They are extremely important to speakers and yes, I do agree they are the most important. This is because it directly affects the speaker driver performance. A poorly designed crossover will make the speaker sound alot worse regardless of drivers.

Other than tweeter protection, the main function is to ensure that tweeters and woofer (assume a 2 way speaker), operates as intended. Eg. there is no way a woofer could player 10-20KHz properly so crossover will filter out these frequencies for the woofer. Same goes for tweeter, its not intended to play low frequencies well so its filtered out as well. Different values of resistors, inductors and capacitors combined to give the speaker its frequency response and characteristic.

This is also where quality of components and characteristic comes in as well. You will mainly see wirewound resistors in here. You will see air-core inductors for tweeters and woofers. Lower end speakers will use ferrite core ones for their woofer to reduce cost. You will hardly see electrolytic caps as well.
 

Killingbeans

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Other than the obvious speaker protection function on tweeters or midrange drivers of course.

It's more a question of letting the drivers operate within their comfort zones and avoiding the frequency bands where they behave undesirably.

How complex the crossover needs to be depends heavily on the specific driver. If it has a naturally smooth roll-off, you'd might incorporate that as a part of the crossover and avoid using a few components. But if, for instance, you use a ceramic bass or midrange driver, it will have nasty break-up modes that overlap the output of the midrange/tweeter, and it's absolutely crucial that you attenuate them. Having all the drivers playing "full range" at the same time will also give you problems with lobing and what have you.

I'm in no way an expert on the subject, but I know the things I mentioned are just the tip of the iceberg.

Crossovers are not "overrated". They are essential, depending on your use case.

100% solid core copper is going to be different to 100% stranded silver

Assuming they have the same gauge, the only difference will be a bit of resistance.

I'm begging you, please, please, pleeeease get that cable nonsense out of your head.
 

BDWoody

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I'm talking about the final influence on the sound as you hear it. They will be different. Not better or worse that is subjective.

All you need now is actual evidence. That's always the missing part. Please stop simply repeating these tired claims. There are fora where claims like this are entertained and encouraged, but this isn't one of them.
 

BDWoody

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They need "science" since they don't have the luxury to listen $1 cable up to $100,000 within 2 hour reach.

Uh huh...
 

mhardy6647

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Never heard a decent sounding piezo tweeter. Yes those things can be wired directly as you say they act as their own crossover.
They can be tamed by adding a resistance across the inputs, making them look electrically enough like a normal loudspeaker so that a "normal" XO may be implemented. Cross them in at 10 kHz or so and one may reap some benefit without the spittiness.

Not that there's really a good reason to -- unless:
1) One has a box full of them and one wants to use them for something.
or
2) One wants a fairly sensitive "supertweeter" and one is really cash-strapped.

:cool:
 

mhardy6647

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It may be worth mentioning that Polk, at least by the looks of things, ultimately saw the error of its ways and redid the aforementioned Model Nine with a soft-dome tweeter and an actual electrical XO, resulting in the Model 9A.

The 9A -- despite having zero cachet with even the Polk folks -- ain't a bad-sounding little "tower" loudspeaker.
By the time the 9A came along, though, the more conventional (not to mention better sounding) Model 7 and 10 had come along. The latter two monkey coffins (still employing passive radiators for loading) sort of cemented Polk's reputation (at least in some circles) for good sounding, high-value loudspeakers, and paved the way for the company's long success. Polk, Gross, and the original crew are retired or gone now -- but the brand name lives on, of course, and has in recent years introduced a handful of pretty decent loudspeakers.

The backstory of the Model Nine is... amusing.

And, why, yes, I do have a pair of 9As in the basement. How did you know? ;)
 

Prana Ferox

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Many PA speakers run full range through their 12inch (or +) main drivers, and just protection against their tweeter / horn whatever. And this is live music, which is often recorded to reproduce on our 'hi-fi's' for live event reproduction at home.

I see this come up a couple times here. It's worth making some distinctions:

Most of this site deals with hardware for music reproduction. The main priority here is fidelity; the music has been made, there is a source of truth, and the point of quality music reproduction equipment is to regenerate the original as much as possible. There are other priorities but fidelity is paramount.

The act of music creation is significantly different. There is no source of truth beyond what the musician hears in their head. The signal chain may be their bare voice into the aether, an acoustic instrument, or a long string of devices out to and including amplified speakers. Generally equipment is included in that signal chain specifically to alter the sound in some way.

So for instance, you have a guitarist, they have the guitar and its components, the strings, the pickups, pedals and processing, amplifier, speakers, cabinet, all are a part of the creation chain, all have their own frequency response, output limits and compression, resonances etc. Equalization and other effects in this chain can be dramatic. Guitar speakers and cabs are frequently pretty bad at reproducing sound but that's OK and a deliberate choice, as the colored and distorted output is a desired effect.

Guitarists commonly don't use multiway cabinets as their frequency band doesn't really require it, but bass guitarists do, as do keyboardists and some other instrumentalists. These cabs will have crossovers of varying complexity based on cost and task, from a cap on a piezo to far more sophisticated circuits. However, the cabs often aren't designed for flat FR - in fact, flat FR is generally undesirable vice a 'baked in sound' that improves efficiency and adds character. That's also why it's very common to mic the cabs instead of pulling a DI line out from the amps, or to pull both and mix them.

There is a slight exception here with a modern concept of modeling, where the musician has a single component that 'models' the desired signal transformation (say, to simulate an old '60s cab and tube amp) and then the rest of the chain including the speakers are intended to be full-range flat response, to avoid further now-undesired coloration. At least right now this isn't mainstream for various reasons. Also, understanding speaker dispersion is a thing that is out there in this context but generally not well understood or prioritized.

Slightly different from music creation is music reinforcement, roughly i.e. the PA. In live reinforcement the sound engineer is as much an artist as the weirdos on stage, and the instrument includes the room / arena and all its contents. Reinforcement has a variety of priorities in communicating the artists' intent roughly evenly across the entire venue, which is a much more complicated task than just putting sound in the 'sweet spot' between a stereo speaker pair. So there may be arrays of drivers for different frequency passbands in complex arrangements for power shading etc.

Your really cheap (or really old, although most quality stuff of even 50+ year old vintage had some sophistication here) PA setups might just have a cap on the horn of a passive speaker, but when it comes to processing for sound reinforcement, the sky is the limit, so as you go up in cost and venue size this almost immediately turns to DSP and multi-amping, in the speaker cab or upstream.

Also with live music presentation at the creation or reinforcement level you have a whole bevy of priorities like, the gear must work under harsh conditions every night, it must produce SPL levels that blow your house windows out and get you arrested, it must do this with a much more aggressive duty cycle, it must be reasonably portable, it may have to work outside in inclement weather etc, that just don't apply to the amps and speakers in your living room. The degree to which flat and clean frequency response is important can vary quite a bit, along with stereo positioning etc.

So there is a tremendous amount of sophistication and complexity out there, just understand it may or may not overlap with audiophile priorities.

Pic attached is a bass cab crossover I built, the FR isn't all that flat, but the priority here (besides cost) was taking a kilowatt of power for an hour or two without me needing to think about it.

IMG_20160811_181552.jpg
 
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