Anyone seen these "Aimpire" Topping Copies/Fakes?

[raistlin65]

D10 is designed by topping A-Z. Anything not coming from/with topping name is fake and counterfeit, period.

If Topping did design it, it still can be from the same factory. It's not uncommon for a factory in China to turn around and manufacture the design for someone else. If that's the case, it might be IP infringement, but "fake" or "counterfeit" doesn't accurately describe the product.

 

[graz_lag]

Here's an happy owner of two Topping DAC's: the DX7 Pro and D10.

I'd not take the Aimpire AD10 even if offered to me for free I respect too much the nice job the folks at Topping are doing.

However the 'Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s' approach should be applied in favor of Aimpire, which is a properly copyrighted brand by individuals trying to build up a business.

The Guangzhou Topping Electronics and Technology Co. Ltd.'s management knows very well that copying, counterfeiting, stealing IP ... are common practices within the Chinese manufacturing sector. An item, which sells well as the Topping D10 does, is gonna be copied sooner or later by somebody else. One should protect his brands/designs, that's much more true in China than in other places.

 

[Veri]

If Topping did design it, it still can be from the same factory. It's not uncommon for a factory in China to turn around and manufacture the design for someone else. If that's the case, it might be IP infringement, but "fake" or "counterfeit" doesn't accurately describe the product.

JohnYang works with Topping. So he knows whats up :/ Apparently the relationship Aimpire/Topping went south. Aimpire had the lay-out copied and had them manufactured based on the copied design. Selling them on amazon and other resellers as a 'Topping D10' while it is in fact an 'Aimpire AD10'. It's a rip-off copy, simple as that. Who knows how it performs.

 

[raistlin65]

JohnYang works with Topping. So he knows whats up :/ Apparently the relationship Aimpire/Topping went south. Aimpire had the lay-out copied and had them manufactured based on the copied design. Selling them on amazon and other resellers as a 'Topping D10' while it is in fact an 'Aimpire AD10'. It's a rip-off copy, simple as that. Who knows how it performs.

I would rather wait for the scientific analysis, either an engineer's review of the topology of both boards, or a measurement review. Whatever Aimpire and Topping's relationship, I would not assume its a "rip-off" copy, as it may be exactly the same thing. These kind of disputes have happened before with Chinese products, and it has turned out the equipment is made by the same factory, or a previous factory that made the units for the original company. And sometimes when people loyal to a brand assumed it was illegal, it turned out it was legal as the factory had the right to make them.

Note that I'm not endorsing Aimpire's selling of this product or suggesting anyone buy it. Rather, from an objectivist perspective, I would say let's stick to the facts rather than embellishing it with conjecture.

 

[Cahudson42]

The decision here seems simple. There is no price advantage of the Aimpire, and nothing but questions on quality, durability, performance, service etc.

Who in their right mind would ever buy/accept the A10 rather than the D10? Buy the D10. End of story..

 

[L5730]

The decision here seems simple. There is no price advantage of the Aimpire, and nothing but questions on quality, durability, performance, service etc.

Who in their right mind would ever buy/accept the A10 rather than the D10?

No one, generally, but Amazon's clunky way of working appears to pool stock from multiple sellers and lump it together with internal product IDs. Thus one orders what they expect and are lead to believe is a genuine Topping product with Topping support and get something of a not-so-known source.
Amazon UK does not have any black Topping D10s at the moment, the only black one is an Aimpire AD10. There are a couple of sellers selling silver Topping D10s (or are advertising as such) and there is one sold by Amazon themselves for an extra £5 (£69.99).

I'd wait or source from elsewhere unless one is prepared to keep going through the hassle of returning Aimpire models and potentially fouling their customer credibility with Amazon.

I've seen a couple of other sites (.pl and .it) selling the Aimpire model, some crossing it with images of the genuine Topping D10.

 

[restorer-john]

D10 is designed by topping A-Z. Anything not coming from/with topping name is fake and counterfeit, period.

Manufacturers for generations have been OEMs for other brands, producing identical products for different markets under house brands or major brands.

It has been been done in HiFi for as long as I can remember. Now with these tin-pot far eastern brands, it's even more common.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Manufacturers for generations have been OEMs for other brands, producing identical products for different markets under house brands or major brands.

It has been been done in HiFi for as long as I can remember. Now with these tin-pot far eastern brands, it's even more common.

Not the case for D10. It's a different story this time.

 

[JohnYang1997]

If Topping did design it, it still can be from the same factory. It's not uncommon for a factory in China to turn around and manufacture the design for someone else. If that's the case, it might be IP infringement, but "fake" or "counterfeit" doesn't accurately describe the product.

Then you will have a point. However it is still considered as "fake", "counterfeit" even then it might perform just as good.
Btw the manufacturing process involves multiple different manufacturers for chassis, pcb, components assembly, full assembly. No single manufacturer can do all this. Plus there is software/programming involved in this, which is done in topping and has to be reverse engineered/ redesigned to work.

 

[restorer-john]

Not the case for D10. It's a different story this time.

Then you will have a point. However it is still considered as "fake", "counterfeit" even then it might perform just as good.
Btw the manufacturing process involves multiple different manufacturers for chassis, pcb, components assembly, full assembly. No single manufacturer can do all this. Plus there is software/programming involved in this, which is done in topping and has to be reverse engineered/ redesigned to work.

The delicious irony of the Chinese copying the Chinese is lost on you?

If the device is a copy, who cares? Most Chinese gear is already full of fake componentry. And if what you say is true (perhaps present some evidence to support the statement), and if Topping want to prevent this happening in future, bring the manufacturing in house, or set up a supply line of actual trusted suppliers instead of opportunists and thieves.

If the Japanese could do that in the 70s-90s, surely it can be done again.

 

[JohnYang1997]

The delicious irony of the Chinese copying the Chinese is lost on you?

If the device is a copy, who cares? Most Chinese gear is already full of fake componentry. And if what you say is true (perhaps present some evidence to support the statement), and if Topping want to prevent this happening in future, bring the manufacturing in house, or set up a supply line of actual trusted suppliers instead of opportunists and thieves.

If the Japanese could do that in the 70s-90s, surely it can be done again.

I'm currently working in topping as intern, and have talked to people involved in this. This is a sad situation.
And yes, they have moved on.

 

[Lafayette]

For all I know the AIMPIRE may perform like the Topping, but when I order any item, no matter how relatively inexpensive, I expect to receive the item that is listed in the description and pictures of the item.

 

[GeorgeWalk]

All of them were sold by Amazon, and on the third rebuy they told me to buy from Amazon again. I'm going to try from Apos Audio and see how it goes. They price matched the drop pretty quickly which was nice. I chatted with Amazon customer service each time it happened so they should be aware I just don't know if they care to look into it.

Go with Apos. I have bought a bunch of stuff from them and I am really happy with the products and their customer service is great! You won't be unhappy.

 

[TLEDDY]

Copies/forgeries/rip-offs are a huge problem on Amazon. Worse,in my opinion, is Amazon’s failure to police - even upon notification.

I am a pistol competitor and use an American made device,“Uplula”, to load pistol magazines in 9mm and .45 calibers.

NONE of those on Amazon are genuine! They are sold only through members of the trade. A search for Uplula produces a collection of obvious counterfeit devices.

Caveat Emptor!

 

[raistlin65]

Then you will have a point. However it is still considered as "fake", "counterfeit" even then it might perform just as good.
Btw the manufacturing process involves multiple different manufacturers for chassis, pcb, components assembly, full assembly. No single manufacturer can do all this. Plus there is software/programming involved in this, which is done in topping and has to be reverse engineered/ redesigned to work.

You are looking at it from a brand loyalty standpoint.

A fake or counterfeit implies something less than the original. If the Aimpire is being assembled with the same components with different branding on it (the situation I was describing), from a scientific/engineering point of view, it is the same piece of hardware. If assembled in a different factory sourcing the same parts, the best thing to call it is a clone. If it's in the same factory with the same components, it's best described as a rebranded product. These differentiations are helpful to those of us interested in the science and engineering of the thing, not the IP issues associated with it.

 

[JohnYang1997]

You are looking at it from a brand loyalty standpoint.

A fake or counterfeit implies something less than the original. If the Aimpire is being assembled with the same components with different branding on it (the situation I was describing), from a scientific/engineering point of view, it is the same piece of hardware. If assembled in a different factory sourcing the same parts, the best thing to call it is a clone. If it's in the same factory with the same components, it's best described as a rebranded product. These differentiations are helpful to those of us interested in the science and engineering of the thing, not the IP issues associated with it.

It cannot be all original, considering it's not a single manufacturer that put everything together. They DO NOT have the exact same software to say at least, then the pcb, resistors, capacitors are not chosen by topping. They will very likely just use the cheapest alternative for everything possible while maintaining functionality and perhaps performance.
A clone is a counterfeit and fake IF the seller use the exact link for d10 and sell the clone and WHEN the clone is delivered when a genuine original product was ordered.

 

[Cahudson42]

It should be interesting to watch the collapse of A10 pricing as ASR word gets around.. Already I see them at $70 with an additional 5% coupon on Amazon..

 

[ElNino]

A fake or counterfeit implies something less than the original. If the Aimpire is being assembled with the same components with different branding on it (the situation I was describing), from a scientific/engineering point of view, it is the same piece of hardware.

Unless it's being assembled on the same factory line with bins of identically sourced parts, it's hard to say that the components are identical. For example, there's quite a variation in capacitor quality for parts that nominally have the same values (even Schiit recently got burned on early Bifrost 2s by a US-based vendor supplying a batch of bad imported caps). And there's no way to say whether the two companies have similar QA processes.

 

[raistlin65]

It cannot be all original, considering it's not a single manufacturer that put everything together. They DO NOT have the exact same software to say at least, then the pcb, resistors, capacitors are not chosen by topping. They will very likely just use the cheapest alternative for everything possible while maintaining functionality and perhaps performance.
A clone is a counterfeit and fake IF the seller use the exact link for d10 and sell the clone and WHEN the clone is delivered when a genuine original product was ordered.

You keep speaking with conjecture, that it's not possible for it to use the same components. Surely by now, Topping has gotten hold of one to figure out what it is and how it performs, to assess the potential damage that it could have on the market.

Although I do understand that Topping would not want to confirm that the design and the hardware is the same/uses comparable components. On the other hand, if it uses cheap components or the design is different, seems beneficial from a marketing perspective to say so rather than speaking speculatively. But of course, there might be legal reasons why Topping doesn't want to speak about that either.

 

[graz_lag]

There is a nice way for Topping to come out from all this: designing the S - or PRO, version of the D10! Thus keeping the technical lead over the competition.
I'll be for sure one of their 1st customer for a D10 updated version!