Any DAC above $2 is a scam you DO NOT pay for Audio Quality you pay for Features (Article)

[ajawamnet]

You really need to watch that video from MIT on the limitations to our hearing... note the low density of aural nerves vs optical. Human hearing is NOT a reasonable quantifier of something as absolute as the physics of electronics or audio. Just isn't Again I'm so sorry

 

[carnagymelton]

You really need to watch that video from MIT on the limitations to our hearing... note the low density of aural nerves vs optical. Human hearing is NOT a reasonable quantifier of something as absolute as the physics of electronics or audio. Just isn't Again I'm so sorry

I think you are misunderstanding the prior arguments. You keep referring to one's inability to explain the results due to variability in hearing. That does not render the results of no value. If 99% of people like DAC A over DAC B, you are going to want to sell DAC A, not DAC B, unless you want to go hungry.

 

[carnagymelton]

In the lab setting, we are typically seeking to discover what the limits of hearing are generally -- whether A and B *can* be differentiated by listening

It really does make cause to wonder why all these tests are not AB, but instead "try to guess which DAC is which, ABCD or E". If you can't consistently guess, you cannot hear differences? That has got to be the most unfortunate test I've heard of, and they claim to not know audio but are really good at conducting tests....

 

[krabapple]

You really need to watch that video from MIT on the limitations to our hearing... note the low density of aural nerves vs optical. Human hearing is NOT a reasonable quantifier of something as absolute as the physics of electronics or audio. Just isn't Again I'm so sorry

Who on earth is talking about human hearing being a foolproof 'quantifier'? Stop the bull. And address the undeniable fact that double blind listening protocols are standard in psychoacoustic research, and show that you understand why that is.

 

[escksu]

Err.... that $2 Realtek ALC889 is just codec. So, not fair to say its just $2. Still many other things needed to get it to work. So, I would say more like $20-50 for USB one.

 

[Deleted member 19195]

I plug my NAD headphones straight into the headphone out on my inexpensive chromebook. Sound is very good.

 

[Tidaliser]

Seems like there's some sort of flame war going on here so I'm not here for that, I'm just curious about what I've found a while ago and that is a cheap headphone DAC using a realtek chip sounds better than my Topping D50 / D10 / SMSL M100 DAC. When I say sounds better I mean I believe I'm hearing more clarity and instrument separation, just sounds 'better'. I might switch back to my D10 today and just compare, all I can say is my Topping D50 has been gathering dust for a while now and I wouldn't leave that out unless I wasn't satisfied with what I'm hearing.
I was thinking maybe this cheap DAC has no capacitors in the output circuitry and / or being a headphone level voltage is driving my line level inputs better, might even be some USB 'thing' i.e. the power being derived from my USB port with a short USB cable, maybe that means less data errors, which is why I'm interested in comparing to my D10. I was thinking this DAC probably measures like complete crap but I prefer the sound signature and / or works better in my particular setup / system.

This is what I'm currently using but I have tested several other models, most sound much the same.

https://www.amazon.com/Soditer-Headphone-Adapter-Headpone-Earphone/dp/B07LC9SCGC/

 

[watchnerd]

Seems like there's some sort of flame war going on here so I'm not here for that, I'm just curious about what I've found a while ago and that is a cheap headphone DAC using a realtek chip sounds better than my Topping D50 / D10 / SMSL M100 DAC. When I say sounds better I mean I believe I'm hearing more clarity and instrument separation, just sounds 'better'. I might switch back to my D10 today and just compare, all I can say is my Topping D50 has been gathering dust for a while now and I wouldn't leave that out unless I wasn't satisfied with what I'm hearing.

If it wasn't volume leveled and you could see the switch, then your listening perception isn't to be trusted.

 

[Tidaliser]

That might be the case but if this cheap DAC can give me the same feel and satisfaction for music as something 10x or 20x the price then for one thing that's interesting and the other thing being these more expensive DACs are just that - more expensive DACs that offer no audible improvement.
Personally I feel more comfortable using a 'proper' DAC, so I'd prefer to use my D50 or D10 but I'll ultimately go with whatever sounds better to my ears or works better in my system.

 

[watchnerd]

That might be the case but if this cheap DAC can give me the same feel and satisfaction for music as something 10x or 20x the price then for one thing that's interesting and the other thing being these more expensive DACs are just that - more expensive DACs that offer no audible improvement.
Personally I feel more comfortable using a 'proper' DAC, so I'd prefer to use my D50 or D10 but I'll ultimately go with whatever sounds better to my ears or works better in my system.

And if it isn't a blind test, any perceived difference at all may all be in your head.

 

[Tidaliser]

I've done a bit of back and forth testing between these DACs, I think as you say if they aren't volume matched and if you can't switch between the DACs quickly it can be hard. From what I'm hearing the realtek cheap DACs still has the edge over the D10, that's not to say the D10 sounds bad just that the cheap DAC seems to offer more detail in the sound, the D10 sounds a little softer. It could be the cheap DAC is not accurate and has some sort of treble hump, I did notice it made my MSR7's sound a little harsh although I don't use these cans anymore. I think I'll try the D10 on my cans, either way in terms of bang for your buck these cheap 'low end' DACs are not bad sounding at all.

 

[tvrgeek]

Well, I just replaced my 10 year old MUSE $100 DAC with a new Schiit $100 DAC. I can clearly hear the difference.
I have not heard the $20 Apple dongle, with a $10 adapter, to see if I can hear the difference between a $30 DAC "system" and my new $100 DAC.

I would agree, DAC and external implementations have now exceeded human hearing, so all the magic and mystique from 30 years ago no longer applies. I would like to see a $2 DAC. Can't make a box with connectors for that, so I get his sentiment, but his numbers are wrong.

 

[watchnerd]

I've done a bit of back and forth testing between these DACs, I think as you say if they aren't volume matched and if you can't switch between the DACs quickly it can be hard. From what I'm hearing the realtek cheap DACs still has the edge over the D10, that's not to say the D10 sounds bad just that the cheap DAC seems to offer more detail in the sound, the D10 sounds a little softer. It could be the cheap DAC is not accurate and has some sort of treble hump, I did notice it made my MSR7's sound a little harsh although I don't use these cans anymore. I think I'll try the D10 on my cans, either way in terms of bang for your buck these cheap 'low end' DACs are not bad sounding at all.

It needs to be blind.

If you can see, it will affect what you hear.

 

[watchnerd]

Well, I just replaced my 10 year old MUSE $100 DAC with a new Schiit $100 DAC. I can clearly hear the difference.

I thought I could clearly hear the difference between DACs, even far apart in age, until I started blind testing.

The I realized I really couldn't, reliably.

 

[ROOSKIE]

I think there is a misconception about blind testing and double blind testing.
These type of tests do remove biases or expectations or the "in your headiness" of it all.
They do aim to minimize and randomize the biases and other head games.
In a blind test you are still not completely free from your minds influence. Therefore at minimum you need a control group and you need a large sample size. Without BOTH you have nothing, zero.
For example, you can go into a blind audio test and not a hear a difference due to your mind actually playing a "head game" that didn't allow you to hear a difference. There are many other examples of things that can go wrong which is why the control and large sample are required.
Now I am not saying anything about DAC's here or driver break in or electronic burn time, or anything Audio specific.
Just that even blind and double blind results are not infallible, they are however often the most likely to be accurate.

 

[watchnerd]

Just that even blind and double blind results are not infallible, they are however often the most likely to be accurate.

Of course.

But even with the slop of a volume-leveled, friend-assisted single blind test, it can be pretty revelatory to your average home audio enthusiast.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Of course.

But even with the slop of a volume-leveled, friend-assisted single blind test, it can be pretty revelatory to your average home audio enthusiast.

Agreed, but really at least there you actually have a sort of control group. That is really important.
The control is your previous findings sighted on the same products. Very flawed but better than no control at all.
Ideally if you are testing say 4 products, you group is large enough that some listeners never even hear more than 1 product, some hear 2, some 3, some do get all 4.
Might be fun to involve this somehow at how.

I don't mean to be rude, but the people claiming no differences DAC to DAC - have they owned one in the $500-1000 range? You don't see audiophiles making the opposite move to a $150-200 device with better measurements. I could easily hear what was different between my old Topping D10 and the E30 I recently received. Having lived with the D10's sound signature for four months, I knew something had changed and I could tell you what it is.

Actually I do see people all the time that are moving to less expensive gear that offers similar or the higher performance. There is also a definite line zone of very diminished returns even if still making "some" gains when spending more.

That move to buying the same quality for less however is a major problem for many companies who rely on you moving the other direction so they can still make good $. But this is really business right? Someone undercuts you and now what, you can't complete on real quality anymore?
Well a fool and his money are soon parted so one strategy is to appeal to lack of confidence. There is a business strategy to sell things for higher prices to instill confidence in a trusting (foolish?) buyer. With technology is it easy to do. I am not saying this is universal but be aware of the power of confirmation biases and marketing and all.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Agreed, but really at least there you actually have a sort of control group. That is really important.
The control is your previous findings sighted on the same products. Very flawed but better than no control at all.
Ideally if you are testing say 4 products, you group is large enough that some listeners never even hear more than 1 product, some hear 2, some 3, some do get all 4.
Might be fun to involve this somehow at how.


Actually I do see people all the time that are moving to less expensive gear that offers similar or the higher performance. There is also a definite line zone of very diminished returns even if still making "some" gains when spending more.

That move to buying the same quality for less however is a major problem for many companies who rely on you moving the other direction so they can still make good $. But this is really business right? Someone undercuts you and now what, you can't complete on real quality anymore?
Well a fool and his money are soon parted so one strategy is to appeal to lack of confidence. There is a business strategy to sell things for higher prices to instill confidence in a trusting (foolish?) buyer. With technology is it easy to do. I am not saying this is universal but be aware of the power of confirmation biases and marketing and all.

PS, by the way I should be clear that I have heard some differences in DAC's. They were not very profound for me and I found nothing interesting about them. I am measurement oriented, that said I do not believe there was zero difference in all the DAC's.
I just use either an LG V series phone or my miniDSP because it is what is used in my active gear and I am more than satisfied.
Nothing compares with changing speakers in terms of sonic variations, but for many that is hard and changing a DAC may add some fun into the mix. (even if more confirmation bias based than actual effect ) I change speakers all the time and own many.

 

[Tidaliser]

What I've done is put my cheap realtek DAC on one channel and the topping D10 on the other channel, volume matched them (roughly) using the balance on my amp, then via Windows just instantly switched between the DACs by selecting default speakers. I couldn't detect any additional detail in the audio that I thought I had on the realtek DAC, the D10 'possibly' sounded more detailed in the higher frequencies but possibly not so forward vocals - which could easily be not perfect volume matching. I think you can drive yourself a little crazy trying to detect differences, neither DAC sounded bad or lacking, I'm not 100% convinced they sounded the same. Perhaps a phono switcher and better volume matching might be more accurate, from swapping left to right speakers it could have easily been room acoustics playing a major part in sound differences. At least I'm more convinced I'm not losing anything using the D10 plus as said it's surprising how good a cheap DAC can sound.

I agree speakers are likely going to make the most difference in terms of improved audio enjoyment.

 

[watchnerd]

What I've done is put my cheap realtek DAC on one channel and the topping D10 on the other channel, volume matched them (roughly) using the balance on my amp, then via Windows just instantly switched between the DACs by selecting default speakers. I couldn't detect any additional detail in the audio that I thought I had on the realtek DAC, the D10 'possibly' sounded more detailed in the higher frequencies but possibly not so forward vocals - which could easily be not perfect volume matching. I think you can drive yourself a little crazy trying to detect differences, neither DAC sounded bad or lacking, I'm not 100% convinced they sounded the same. Perhaps a phono switcher and better volume matching might be more accurate, from swapping left to right speakers it could have easily been room acoustics playing a major part in sound differences. At least I'm more convinced I'm not losing anything using the D10 plus as said it's surprising how good a cheap DAC can sound.

I agree speakers are likely going to make the most difference in terms of improved audio enjoyment.

But you knew which DAC was on which channel, right?