Why I am unable to hear any difference between these DACs?

[threni]

Not in that context. Being open means you are intrigue, eager to learn, and not being blunt. Find out more about the manufacturer, the product, read reviews, or talk to the design engineer. You can also validate what the manufacturer or others claim, then make your own conclusion from it. Learning is fun!

Well, no. This context is me, being told to keep an open mind when confronted with what sounds like nonsense. "The power conditioner (NDS) had made a significant difference...it opened up the soundstage bringing the musicians closer to you....Measurements only tell half the story. With the right DAC, it will add realism to your music.". You also used the following words to describe the difference between DACs: fatigued, velvety sound, spacious, nicely defined, "like a real piano", velvety smooth (that's a lot of velvet, huh). I guess as well as measurements you need adjectives and poetry. To paint the full picture. Nyquist didn't need a theory, just a thesaurus.
I don't know what "power conditioner" you are using but I'm going to guess that it costs more than the £93 I paid for my Topping E30 DAC which converts from D to A perfectly (for the purposes of human hearing; all humans), and which is powered by the Amazon usb plug I used to use to charge my phone.
From what you wrote you didn't perform a blind test. Perhaps you should close your mind, just a little, stop having fun for a moment and repeat the test with a volume matched blind test to see if you're just fooling yourself into hearing a difference which isn't there. I don't need to waste my time with what the manufacturer (BS!), or reviews (shills and idiot audiofools) are saying if the measurement tell me their products suck or are overpriced.

 

[Leporello]

Because at a certain point, the DAC measurements don't matter and what's left is critical listening. Everything ultimately has to be mediated through our own ears.


It wasn't a slight for anyone who experiences that way. Certainly it would be far easier (and cheaper) for me if I couldn't hear differences. I find dissatisfaction with a lot of DACs the more time I spend with them to understand how they sound and the flaws that become too difficult to ignore (And get in the way of enjoying music).

So far there is no reason to believe you actually hear these differences you claim to hear.

 

[Leporello]

If the products were good, you would hardly see any on the used market.

It's always telling when you see a lot of the same products for sale used, there's a correlation of folks being unsatisfied with their performance.

So far there is no quantitavely convincing data that this is actually happening. Even if there were, unhappiness with performance would be only one of the possible logical explanations of the phenomenon.

 

[Bernd]

Hi, this is an interesting topîc: I've been through the following DACS:

• Loxie D30
• Topping DX7s
• SMSL -M500
• ---------------
• Denafrips Ares + SMSL SH9
• RME ADI DAC2 FS

I'm listening over headphones only (Focal CLEAR): to me the first 3 ones sounded identicial. Then a friend lent me the RME ADI and that thing sounded so much better to me. However, my friend left a couple of features on that this DAC has : Loundness, bass gain (+ 2 db) treble gain (+1.5 db) . If I leave all these parameters flat it was still better then the Loxie, Topping, SMSL but less pronounced. Anyway I sold those and bought a ADI DAC myself

The Denafrips Ares sounds different (oversampling on, slow filter) but not better then the ADI DAC: however when I emulate the RME EQ setting though ROON is becomes the winner to my ears.

Conclusion: I am convinced you need very good headphones/speakers to be able to hear differences between DACs and EQing can make a huge difference to the percieved quality of the sound.

 

[GGroch]

Conclusion: I am convinced you need very good headphones/speakers to be able to hear differences between DACs and EQing can make a huge difference to the perceived quality of the sound.

The conclusion by most here is that differences between modern correctly designed DACs are not audible; but that in sighted listening comparisons most people will hear differences, regardless of the quality of headphones/speakers. If you have excellent high frequency hearing and listen to pink noise you may be able to determine differences between filter settings. Thing is, all of our cognitive biases are so strong in sighted listening, they overwhelm any objective sound differences.

But, no question EQ can make a huge difference, and since we cannot turn off cognitive bias, the RME ADI Dacs provide in my view, about as great a subjective experience you can get Plus, they have lots of fun controls to fiddle with.

 

[Deleted member 27948]

Then a friend lent me the RME ADI and that thing sounded so much better to me. However, my friend left a couple of features on that this DAC has : Loundness, bass gain (+ 2 db) treble gain (+1.5 db) . If I leave all these parameters flat it was still better then the Loxie, Topping, SMSL but less pronounced. Anyway I sold those and bought a ADI DAC myself

BHW, there are ways to make your recordings "brighter" by inserting distortions, both linear and non-linear - in a short term, for a short, 10-15 minute audition. However, many people will prefer the most transparent reproduction - in the long run - if given a choice, and I believe such decisions are mostly if not totally subconscious.

Could you explain what did you mean by "so much better"?

 

[solderdude]

I'll openly admit it here.. I am DAC-deaf.
Saves me a lot of money.
Alas I am stupid enough to blow that on headphones which actually do differ in sound signature.

 

[Bernd]

Could you explain what did you mean by "so much better"?

Well, first of all the base reveals more detail: instead of some uniform deep rolling thunder I can now differenciate between various bass effects. My reference record for that is 'Perfectomundo' from Billy Gibbons. The second is that the music seems to be around me whereas before it came only from the left and right of my cans.

 

[SIY]

Well, first of all the base reveals more detail: instead of some uniform deep rolling thunder I can now differenciate between various bass effects. My reference record for that is 'Perfectomundo' from Billy Gibbons. The second is that the music seems to be around me whereas before it came only from the left and right of my cans.

The influence of sighted comparisons is profound.

 

[GGroch]

I'll openly admit it here.. I am DAC-deaf...

My sincere condolences. Happily I am not. As a boomer, I am pleased to report to less experienced audiophiles that while my senses are in gradual decline, my biases of all kinds rise to compensate. I am certain Kahneman wrote about this phenomenon but don't remember where.

Most recent example: Amp bias. I literally have a JDS El Amp II arriving today to replace my Atom. While I appreciate the Atom's detail and power, over time I became annoyed by the lack of heft in its presentation. At times its imaging would unexpectedly wander across the desk. This was somewhat mitigated when I placed my D50 DAC on top of it reducing vibrations. I could not compensate for the insubstantial feel of the volume control and the hollow click it makes when I power on. Both of these factors contribute to an unacceptable lack of gravitas prior to a critical listening session. I expect the El Amp's cast aluminum chassis and substantial top mounted volume control will solve these annoyances.

 

[raistlin65]

My sincere condolences. Happily I am not. As a boomer, I am pleased to report to less experienced audiophiles that while my senses are in gradual decline, my biases of all kinds rise to compensate. I am certain Kahneman wrote about this phenomenon but don't remember where.

Most recent example: Amp bias. I literally have a JDS El Amp II arriving today to replace my Atom. While I appreciate the Atom's detail and power, over time I became annoyed by the lack of heft in its presentation. At times its imaging would unexpectedly wander across the desk. This was somewhat mitigated when I placed my D50 DAC on top of it reducing vibrations. I could not compensate for the insubstantial feel of the volume control and the hollow click it makes when I power on. Both of these factors contribute to an unacceptable lack of gravitas prior to a critical listening session. I expect the El Amp's cast aluminum chassis and substantial top mounted volume control will solve these annoyances.

Yeah. Just switched from the Atom to the THX 789 for the same reason. They sound the same, but I like having a unit that doesn't get all squirrely every time I try to plug in headphones. Plus, the line out passthrough suits my needs for my speakers better than the preamp out of the Atom.

 

[krabapple]

Conclusion: I am convinced you need very good headphones/speakers to be able to hear differences between DACs

I am convinced you need to use blind, carefully level-matched comparisons before claiming to hear differences due to DACs.

and EQing can make a huge difference to the percieved quality of the sound.

not surprising since EQ's purpose can be said to be: "alter the perceived quality of the sound"

 

[Deleted member 27948]

I'll openly admit it here.. I am DAC-deaf.

I would not encourage jumping to this conclusion.

About a year ago, friends of mine, a couple of 80yo and 75yo, bought a new 4K TV (~$1500) with a Sony soundbar (~$500) and invited me to movies. I tried but complained a lot. They listened and followed my advice, and bought a pair of decent 15yo 3-way speakers for $700, a used Rotel for $50, and a DAC for $30, one of those entry models on Amazon. Of course, it was day and night relative to the soundbar ... but something was still lacking (to me). It took me about 3 months to realize that these distortions must have been coming from that cheapo DAC (don't ask me how). It was replaced with SMSL M100 - and yes, that $30 DAC was the weakest link in the chain. The difference was apparent not only to me but to the 80yo folks as well.

IMHO, generally, DAC is rarely the weakest link in the chain... but I would not rule out that it may happen in some cases to some people.

 

[Deleted member 27948]

Well, first of all the base reveals more detail: instead of some uniform deep rolling thunder I can now differenciate between various bass effects. My reference record for that is 'Perfectomundo' from Billy Gibbons. The second is that the music seems to be around me whereas before it came only from the left and right of my cans.

May I ask if you have used the same headphone amp?

BTW, those are often spec-ed well below DAC's.

 

[zanzibar]

Hi, this is an interesting topîc: I've been through the following DACS:

• Loxie D30
• Topping DX7s
• SMSL -M500
• ---------------
• Denafrips Ares + SMSL SH9
• RME ADI DAC2 FS

I'm listening over headphones only (Focal CLEAR): to me the first 3 ones sounded identicial. Then a friend lent me the RME ADI and that thing sounded so much better to me. However, my friend left a couple of features on that this DAC has : Loundness, bass gain (+ 2 db) treble gain (+1.5 db) . If I leave all these parameters flat it was still better then the Loxie, Topping, SMSL but less pronounced. Anyway I sold those and bought a ADI DAC myself

The Denafrips Ares sounds different (oversampling on, slow filter) but not better then the ADI DAC: however when I emulate the RME EQ setting though ROON is becomes the winner to my ears.

Conclusion: I am convinced you need very good headphones/speakers to be able to hear differences between DACs and EQing can make a huge difference to the percieved quality of the sound.

Thanks for sharing these comparison in your experience. I really enjoy seeing this kind of perspective because people are comparing it typically with all the same equipment. Others can compare but then there's all those variables with people having completely different setups.

The only thing I'll add, is a resolving two channel system can certainly pick up on the differences. My system (tube mono blocks) can be impacted in great measure by a single tube. In this case, a 6AU6. My colleague and I have gone through numerous ones and we have very similar system and the same speakers.

Thanks again for sharing your perspective and on the Ares vs. ADI-2.

 

[Bernd]

May I ask if you have used the same headphone amp?

BTW, those are often spec-ed well below DAC's.

Yes, same headphone amp: SMSL-SH9 but then there is still a difference: the Denafrips connects to the SMSL via XLR balanced and the ADI via COAX. I did not switch that around to check

 

[hwest]

Dear fellow audio scientists,

I have been following many of the discussion for a while and appreciate your time, effort and opinion on various issues. I have a short question, which is both fundamental and specific so I would love to hear what you think.

I have listened to a couple of decent speakers in the sub 5k Euro range (such as ATC SMC40, KEF R700, Heco Celan 9). I just replaced my KEF R500 with Heco Elementa (Similar to Celan 7 I was told), as I find them way may more resolving in the mid and upper register (500 Hz and up). It looks like this is not specific to my chain, which comprises a RaspberryPi with Volumio -> Onkyo P3000R -> Onkyo M-5000R. In my case, I assume the lower end is amplified with some loss of detail. However, I am in love with the looks of the M-5000R and I am not looking for a replacement.

I have been testing a few budget but well reviewed DACs (up to 500 Euro/USD – SMSL, Topping) which feature the newest chips as opposed to my Onkyo’s twin Burr Brown PCM1795, which was excellent a decade ago. To my surprise, the external DACs sound so similar to the Onkyo that I cannot tell any difference. My question is: Are the differences too minute to note or would you assume my system is “hiding” too much detail from me?

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Dee

I think most of you are on the right page with your ears. Onkyo just does more with their implementations of the classic Burr Browns than just about anyone. Even using Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry to reduce noise from the DAC outputs. I have used Onkyo's because properly tuned they will sound better than any of the expensive Preprocessors AV receivers. I will tell you I'm not a big fan of the new RZ lineup as Onkyo has changed a bit, perhaps the new Integra receivers (High end Onkyo basically) will sound as good as the PRC-5530 which in my opinion sounds better than any Mcintosh, Rotel, etc. Whatever you do don't go for Rotel they use Wolfson DAC's and they sound like PC audio I hate to offend anyone but it's the truth. I think to match an Onkyo PRC-5530 you would have to go all the way up to an Audiocontrol Maestro X9 with the ESS Sabre DAC, even then I just don't know haven't hear Audiocontrol but that's my next move when they add 8K support, Audiocontrol is so customizable if you don't like it you can tweak it with it's Parametric EQ capabilities and room correction. I always try to tune to my own ear and not "room correction", but it can help with a good starting point. Denon, Marantz, Pioneer are all junk flat with no life in the music, again I may be insulting folks but if you have not heard sound that is alive with clarity, separation and range, you won't ever understand what you're missing. Personalized to one's ear or not, no one that has heard my setup walks away without being astounded. -I hope this helps.

 

[BDWoody]

Denon, Marantz, Pioneer are all junk flat with no life in the music, again I may be insulting folks but if you have not heard sound that is alive with clarity, separation and range, you won't ever understand what you're missing.

Uh huh...

 

[_thelaughingman]

I think most of you are on the right page with your ears. Onkyo just does more with their implementations of the classic Burr Browns than just about anyone. Even using Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry to reduce noise from the DAC outputs. I have used Onkyo's because properly tuned they will sound better than any of the expensive Preprocessors AV receivers. I will tell you I'm not a big fan of the new RZ lineup as Onkyo has changed a bit, perhaps the new Integra receivers (High end Onkyo basically) will sound as good as the PRC-5530 which in my opinion sounds better than any Mcintosh, Rotel, etc. Whatever you do don't go for Rotel they use Wolfson DAC's and they sound like PC audio I hate to offend anyone but it's the truth. I think to match an Onkyo PRC-5530 you would have to go all the way up to an Audiocontrol Maestro X9 with the ESS Sabre DAC, even then I just don't know haven't hear Audiocontrol but that's my next move when they add 8K support, Audiocontrol is so customizable if you don't like it you can tweak it with it's Parametric EQ capabilities and room correction. I always try to tune to my own ear and not "room correction", but it can help with a good starting point. Denon, Marantz, Pioneer are all junk flat with no life in the music, again I may be insulting folks but if you have not heard sound that is alive with clarity, separation and range, you won't ever understand what you're missing. Personalized to one's ear or not, no one that has heard my setup walks away without being astounded. -I hope this helps.

Oh yea my Topping DAC sounds so much better than my Denon! Pfft what a load of garbage. Lets get the wool out of the ears and burn it.

 

[SIY]

I think most of you are on the right page with your ears. Onkyo just does more with their implementations of the classic Burr Browns than just about anyone. Even using Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry to reduce noise from the DAC outputs. I have used Onkyo's because properly tuned they will sound better than any of the expensive Preprocessors AV receivers. I will tell you I'm not a big fan of the new RZ lineup as Onkyo has changed a bit, perhaps the new Integra receivers (High end Onkyo basically) will sound as good as the PRC-5530 which in my opinion sounds better than any Mcintosh, Rotel, etc. Whatever you do don't go for Rotel they use Wolfson DAC's and they sound like PC audio I hate to offend anyone but it's the truth. I think to match an Onkyo PRC-5530 you would have to go all the way up to an Audiocontrol Maestro X9 with the ESS Sabre DAC, even then I just don't know haven't hear Audiocontrol but that's my next move when they add 8K support, Audiocontrol is so customizable if you don't like it you can tweak it with it's Parametric EQ capabilities and room correction. I always try to tune to my own ear and not "room correction", but it can help with a good starting point. Denon, Marantz, Pioneer are all junk flat with no life in the music, again I may be insulting folks but if you have not heard sound that is alive with clarity, separation and range, you won't ever understand what you're missing. Personalized to one's ear or not, no one that has heard my setup walks away without being astounded. -I hope this helps.

Uh huh.

Oh wait, Woodman got there first.