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Has anybody heard the new KEF KF92 sub? What are your opinions?

bo_knows

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Looks great! Love the bass traps and all, you have quite a setup there...the KF92 is quite a bit more beefy than the KC62, but looks like you can still squeeze it out of the way...

...recently I had a shot at buying a SVS SB-3000 from ebay, with hefty int'l shipping costs, would have been close to the cost of a new KC62 here in Japan. But I decided against it. Now I think I'll wait and get the KF92, it looks like a super solid sub and should last for a very long time.
Highly recommended! You will not get a phone app but the sub will go flat to 15hz in small to medium-sized rooms.
I recently listened to big KEF blades and very expensive Mac gear and felt like the bass in my room is more tight and accurate (see the link below). Place your sub as close as you can to the front wall and don't have mains too far from it. Think SBIR when positioning your speakers. Also, if you don't have a large room and don't care about the flat bass response in more than one location, start with only one subwoofer.

P.S.I need to post a new picture. The picture in my post is still showing the old R400b subwoofer. The old one was great but the new one is even better. ;)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...3-vs-kef-blade-lets-discuss.18926/post-865611
 
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Tokyo_John

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Highly recommended! You will not get a phone app but the sub will go flat to 15hz in small to medium-sized rooms.

Yeah, I could care less about phone apps and other gimmicks that add to the cost but which I have little use for...

I recently listened to big KEF blades and very expensive Mac gear and felt like the bass in my room is more tight and accurate (see the link below).

...nice, but I have to say that you have quite a room there!

Place your sub as close as you can to the front wall and don't have mains too far from it. Think SBIR when positioning your speakers. Also, if you don't have a large room and don't care about the flat bass response in more than one location, start with only one subwoofer.

Thanks for the tips! I will give it a go...looking forward to it.
 

Tokyo_John

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...if you don't have a large room and don't care about the flat bass response in more than one location...

Here is what the floor plan looks like right now. It isn't a dedicated listening space, but rather part of a living, dining, and kitchen area. The room is reasonably large, but not huge. A TV will go on the entertainment center, I'll be able to watch football games while cooking in the kitchen. There are some complexities, such as a low wall, which I thought about taking out (but wife likes it). I will use a miniDSP with Dirac for room correction, and custom build most furniture myself and so I can make spaces and cubbies for a subwoofer. Here are the 3 placement options I've been considering thus far (A,B,C...it can be integrated into/under furniture in any of these spots). I'm going to install the heaviest absorbing curtains that I can buy on the patio doors. Thinking about an area rug for the hardwood floor in front of the sofa, maybe a bass trap integrated into the noted corner shelf, and sound diffusers (or sound diffusing surfaces) here and there (thinking about ways to integrate it into traditional Japanese style decor). I'm also thinking about building a ceiling diffuser, but of course it will only handle higher frequencies.
 

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bo_knows

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Yeah, I could care less about phone apps and other gimmicks that add to the cost but which I have little use for...



...nice, but I have to say that you have quite a room there!



Thanks for the tips! I will give it a go...looking forward to it.
Hello Tokyo_John,

Thank you very much for the compliment on my room! It was a lot of work but I'm getting there.
It's a little lab for my hobby. :) Since there's nothing really definitive in room acoustics treatments, I found out that tunning the room is almost like cooking. LOL. If the sound is too bright, add more absorption, if the sound is a little dull, add more wood to scatter the reflections. Things get more complicated in smaller rooms where it's not easy to use diffusion due to lack of distance hence using something like scatter strips.
Oh, I almost forgot to mention, if the subwoofer was any bigger, I wouldn't know where to place it. KF92 fits perfectly.
 

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bo_knows

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Here is what the floor plan looks like right now. It isn't a dedicated listening space, but rather part of a living, dining, and kitchen area. The room is reasonably large, but not huge. A TV will go on the entertainment center, I'll be able to watch football games while cooking in the kitchen. There are some complexities, such as a low wall, which I thought about taking out (but wife likes it). I will use a miniDSP with Dirac for room correction, and custom build most furniture myself and so I can make spaces and cubbies for a subwoofer. Here are the 3 placement options I've been considering thus far (A,B,C...it can be integrated into/under furniture in any of these spots). I'm going to install the heaviest absorbing curtains that I can buy on the patio doors. Thinking about an area rug for the hardwood floor in front of the sofa, maybe a bass trap integrated into the noted corner shelf, and sound diffusers (or sound diffusing surfaces) here and there (thinking about ways to integrate it into traditional Japanese style decor). I'm also thinking about building a ceiling diffuser, but of course it will only handle higher frequencies.
You are on the right path.
I would suggest you use as much wood as you can for your treatments and furniture. It's a wonderful medium for sound and gives it a warm signature. Drapes are also good for the outside noise and I use them as well.
 
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Tokyo_John

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Everything that knowledgable people have said (including many on this forum) indicates that the room is the most important factor in obtaining great sound reproduction, at least as important as the system itself. And it is the most neglected factor for amateurs, who tend to focus only on gear.

I read Amir's thread about room measurements some time ago, and it really inspired me to play, as well. I picked up a miniDSP calibrated mic, and began running measurements of my present listening space (an apartment). I was actually very surprised to find that my setup measured super-flat from my sofa listening position, and was putting out better bass than I expected without a sub. I had stumbled upon an almost perfect acoustic design by chance. But I realize that this is luck, in most rooms I'll need to do a lot of work to get there.

I actually had two large foam bass traps that I brought home to play with, and when I installed them they hurt the sound signature of the room by putting deep notches in the frequency response (very selective in frequency). It made me realize that it is possible to mess up a perfectly good room with unneeded treatment, and instead of pulling back one might have an instinct to continue adding even more treatments, doubling down on bad bets, and if one goes down that rabbit hole it could lead to a lot of expense and the solution would be a completely dead-sounding room. I don't want to go there...

...I found out that tunning the room is almost like cooking. LOL. If the sound is too bright, add more absorption, if the sound is a little dull, add more wood to scatter the reflections....

I like this analogy...maybe even better than cooking, since it is impossible to remove salt once it has dissolved into the sauce...
 
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killdozzer

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@killdozzer , It's 8 months later now, so what happened? Did you get a subwoofer?
Nope. But I always go very slow with these things. I don't like the hustle of ordering and returning.

The thing is, I still haven't found a serious test on these dual opposing KEF toys. It seems that serious people turn their head while murmuring "Hofmann, Hofmann" as soon as they see the enclosure volume and the specs the company slapped on these, all the while KEF company keeps screaming "don't think of Hofmann!!!"

In the mean time SVS came out with a dual opposing at a fraction of the cost and with their well known DSP. So, it'll be SVS Micro if any dual opposing. Although people criticize Micro as well. now I have to see if anyone will do a proper test on SVS 3000 Micro, but again, I don't see people waiting in lines to test it.
 

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It seems that serious people turn their head while murmuring "Hofmann, Hofmann" as soon as they see the enclosure volume and the specs the company slapped on these, all the while KEF company keeps screaming "don't think of Hofmann!!!"

I think the 1000W amp is the component of the sub designed to satisfy Hoffman.
 
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killdozzer

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I think the 1000W amp is the component of the sub designed to satisfy Hoffman.
Thanks. What I still need to see is a graph that shows lowest end of said sub with usable (well, audible) dB. Simply to put an end to the guessing game. Will this sub in practice, in everyday use, be audible bellow 30Hz if you play your music at 90dB when you crank it up? Or will it be all over 50-60Hz like an additional port bump in bookshelves? Is it a proper sub (and I mean SUB) or is it just another woofer that impresses the masses?
 

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killdozzer

killdozzer

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bo_knows

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Thanks. What I still need to see is a graph that shows lowest end of said sub with usable (well, audible) dB. Simply to put an end to the guessing game. Will this sub in practice, in everyday use, be audible bellow 30Hz if you play your music at 90dB when you crank it up? Or will it be all over 50-60Hz like an additional port bump in bookshelves? Is it a proper sub (and I mean SUB) or is it just another woofer that impresses the masses?
So you are totally ignoring my post #96?
Are my graphs not good for you? LOL. It's ok, no hurt feelings here.
Anyway, this KEF "toy" goes flat to 15hz in my small room as you can see in the graph.
For the size, this sub is excellent and it does the trick for me (music and movies).
Now, KEF pricing and value, hummm...that is for every individual to decide.
 
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killdozzer

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So you are totally ignoring my post #96?
Are my graphs not good for you? LOL. It's ok, no hurt feelings here.
Anyway, this KEF "toy" goes flat to 15hz in my small room as you can see in the graph.
For the size, this sub is excellent and it does the trick for me (music and movies).
Now, KEF pricing and value, hummm...that is for every individual to decide.
Oooh... Sorry!!! No, your measurements are great. I must've overlooked. I'll give them my time and close attention and come up with a comment.

What I find strange even in this short comment of yours is this 15Hz. If it can do 15, what's with all the naysayers?? Did you have anyone criticizing your measurements? Did anyone make a valid point against the sub? I do remember a lot of serious people from the business, like over at AH, saying it simply can't be so.
 

bo_knows

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Oooh... Sorry!!! No, your measurements are great. I must've overlooked. I'll give them my time and close attention and come up with a comment.

What I find strange even in this short comment of yours is this 15Hz. If it can do 15, what's with all the naysayers?? Did you have anyone criticizing your measurements? Did anyone make a valid point against the sub? I do remember a lot of serious people from the business, like over at AH, saying it simply can't be so.
Q: If it can do 15, what's with all the naysayers??
A: Yes it can according to the UMIK-2 microphone, and I have no idea.
Q: Did you have anyone criticizing your measurements?
A: Not yet.
Q: Did anyone make a valid point against the sub?
A: Yes, the price.

I buy KEF gear with my ears and eyes. It's expensive but so are other European brands (Focal, B&W, Dynaudio and, etc.)
 
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killdozzer

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Q: If it can do 15, what's with all the naysayers??
A: Yes it can according to the UMIK-2 microphone, and I have no idea.
Q: Did you have anyone criticizing your measurements?
A: Not yet.
Q: Did anyone make a valid point against the sub?
A: Yes, the price.

I buy KEF gear with my ears and eyes. It's expensive but so are other European brands (Focal, B&W, Dynaudio and, etc.)
I love KEF gear, I like the company's philosophy. That's why I was unpleasantly surprised when they wrote 11Hz on that KF62. I want them to be rigorous and brutally conservative with measurements. But I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong. I'm glad you're satisfied with the sub. One other thing, our listening rooms are almost the same size, which is good when giving recommendations. however, those are in room response, right? You got some reinforcement from the walls which are most likely concrete?
 

bo_knows

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Meanwhile, I sit here in Europe and drool over the JL subs :D
I hear you loud and clear, I thought of going that route also and I could of for the price. :) That was my next step but things didn't work out that way in the end. JL Audio makes some serious subs and yes, KEF subs will look like "toys" next to them. All I know is that I was able to integrate my ONE sub with mains so when listening to music, I can't tell where the bass is coming from. Bass response is almost ruler flat. This is the highest prize one can give to sub IMHO.
Call me KEF loyal and a believer.
 

bo_knows

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I love KEF gear, I like the company's philosophy. That's why I was unpleasantly surprised when they wrote 11Hz on that KF62. I want them to be rigorous and brutally conservative with measurements. But I'm perfectly willing to be proven wrong. I'm glad you're satisfied with the sub. One other thing, our listening rooms are almost the same size, which is good when giving recommendations. however, those are in room response, right? You got some reinforcement from the walls which are most likely concrete?
Q: however, those are in room response, right?
A: Yes, in the room, pictures of the room are attached in other posts.
Q: You got some reinforcement from the walls which are most likely concrete?
A: No, there is probably some room gain but I have double french doors and holes in the ceiling for the AC inlet and diffuser. This is a converted "home office" room that has windows in the back of my listening position. House build is typical of North American standard, made of wood and drywall. All these things will leak bass. The room is located on the ground floor which has a concrete foundation. The wood floor is glued to the foundation. As far as KEF marketing, you are smart and can read "between the lines". ;)
I hope this helps.
 

Tokyo_John

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Last month I pulled the trigger on a KC62, and very happy with the results so far. I initially plugged it in via RCA connection from the DAC with no crossover and just doing a manual setting of volume and low pass frequency on the sub itself. I don’t have freedom to place it where I want just yet, since I’m still in the smaller apartment while renovating the house, so it is stuck in the bottom shelf of a cabinet in a corner. I wondered about the wisdom of placing a sub on the shelf below my big NAS drive, but the KC62 is perfectly balanced in its opposing drivers…there are no vibrations of the cabinet itself, I can put my hand on it at loud volumes and thumping bass hard, and it simply doesn’t move. So the dual opposed drivers are already showing benefits.

The aluminum case and it’s build quality are really impressive. I wish everything were made to last…like this sub. I think this is one of the big reasons why the KC62 is more expensive than some of its competitors, such as the SVS micro3000 (but I’ve not seen one to compare directly).

I did some basic tests with REW and a umik-1 and found complex undesired peaks and valleys in the integration. Also, the main speakers (KEF LS50 Metas) really needed a high pass to make a proper crossover, and unleash them from trying to provide bass so they could focus more on mids and highs (where they really shine). So I bought a miniDSP SHD to replace my DAC. Even using a crossover, things improved quite a lot, the speakers opened up a bit and the system was beginning to really impress. I played with crossover frequencies a lot, and settled on 60 Hz for the moment, low enough to delocalize the sub and hide its poor placement in the corner. But this was just the start.

So then one day I had a little time while the kids were out and I ran my first Dirac Live wide field calibration with many measurements around my sofa area (struggling with a too short USB cord for the microphone but I got it done). I downloaded the calibration to the SHD and ran it…whoa! Now the sub and speakers and everything have melded into that mystical “wall of sound” that many people talk about. The stereo imaging and bass integration are amazing. I never knew how bad my room sounded until that moment. I suppose that in a “perfect” room this would have no impact at all, and so the difference I hear toggling Dirac on/off while listening is a very real demonstration of the room’s deficits.

This is just the beginning, but already I’m convinced of the value of digital room correction and combining it with sub integration via crossover in the same DSP. I have a boom stand for photography lighting that I’ll use next time, and also going to order a longer USB cable. This will make the calibration process much easier.

How is the sub? Is it low and loud? For me it is WAY more than I need at the moment. I’m hearing aspects of bass in songs that I never knew existed, even with good headphones I was missing certain elements (you can physically feel bass from a loudspeaker, but not from cans). Just last night I was listening to Pink Floyd the Wall with the new setup, an album I’ve heard a million times, and feeling the thump of the kick drum…never really noticed it before.

How about the lowest frequencies? The calibrated microphone says they are present at least to 15 Hz. And the bass sou da/feels deep, digging into the lowest audible rumbles in movie tracks, but that is a subjective impression.

There is more to say, but I’m over all very happy with the purchase. It wasn’t cheap, but it certainly makes a world of difference. I have no opportunity to compare bigger beefier subs in the same system, and so it is tough for me to recommend this over other options. But for a sub that is compact and stows away easily, is built very well, and produces very respectable deep bass and volumes suitable to my listening preferences, it does not disappoint.
 
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killdozzer

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Q: however, those are in room response, right?
A: Yes, in the room, pictures of the room are attached in other posts.
Q: You got some reinforcement from the walls which are most likely concrete?
A: No, there is probably some room gain but I have double french doors and holes in the ceiling for the AC inlet and diffuser. This is a converted "home office" room that has windows in the back of my listening position. House build is typical of North American standard, made of wood and drywall. All these things will leak bass. The room is located on the ground floor which has a concrete foundation. The wood floor is glued to the foundation. As far as KEF marketing, you are smart and can read "between the lines". ;)
I hope this helps.
I see you answer other people with regular text comments and you communicate with me in these Q & A form, why is that? This Q & A form is really unpleasant. It makes me feel like I was attacking you while I wasn't. You're making me look worse than I already am.
 
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