Dr. Klaus Heinz of HEDD Audio (ex ADAM Audio) - measuring speakers, in particular speaker dynamics

[Krunok]

Did he say what crossover frequency was used? I'm thinking to make it work amazingly maybe 200 or higher might be required.

70Hz.

"The low frequency sounds similar on both, even though I cross the subs at 45 Hz on the JBL 4722’s and 70 Hz on the LS50’s. "

 

[andreasmaaan]

I don't think that would be the case. I would expect reference 1 speakers to handle 110 peaks with comfortable ease in the 80-350Hz. Besides, accoring to specs 8B can be set to handle frequencies up to 160Hz so Reference 1 would be left to handle from 160Hz upwards and that certainly shouldn't be a problem for SPL up to 110dB.

I don't know of any 6.5" woofer that can comfortably handle 110dB peaks at 80-100Hz. The driver will be at or (more likely) beyond Xmax at that level.

Raising the crossover frequency from 80 to 160Hz is an option, but then you'd be forced to place the subs directly below the mains, which negates what IMHO is one of the main reasons for having them in the first place.

 

[Krunok]

In other words, this speaker is not "large" by any measure, and will need a sub to play low and loud.

Doesn't 8B leave an impression it can do just that? I mean, for a price KEF is asking it should be..

 

[Krunok]

Raising the crossover frequency from 80 to 160Hz is an option, but then you'd be forced to place the subs directly below the mains, which negates what IMHO is one of the main reasons for having them in the first place.

I was actually assuming we are speaking exactly about the scenario where subs are below small mains. Those who want to cancel room modes should by additional subs!

 

[andreasmaaan]

Doesn't 8B leave an impression it can do just that? I mean, for a price KEF is asking it should be..

@svart-hvitt and I were discussing the Genelec S360 there, not the KEF 8B.

 

[Krunok]

@svart-hvitt and I were discussing the Genelec S360 there, not the KEF 8B.

Ah, ok - sorry, my bad..

 

[Krunok]

Did he say what crossover frequency was used? I'm thinking to make it work amazingly maybe 200 or higher might be required.

What also may be of interest is which DAC he used to drive LS50s and subs. @mitchco, can you please share that detail with us?

 

[PierreV]

What also may be of interest is which DAC he used to drive LS50s and subs. @mitcho, can you please share that detail with us?

It is @mitchco I think. From the picture in the article, it could be a Lynx Studio Hilo.

 

[Krunok]

It is @mitchco I think. From the picture in the article, it could be a Lynx Studio Hilo.

Wow, you do have an eye for details - thank you!

 

[PierreV]

Wow, you do have an eye for details - thank you!

Running a modified MQA codec in my visual cortex

 

[Krunok]

Running a modified MQA codec in my visual cortex

Hahaha - I don't think so, it certainly wouldn't work that well!

 

[svart-hvitt]

But again, the spec sheet places piles of caveats on that 112dB figure: "Maximum long term RMS acoustic output... in half space, averaged from 100 Hz to 3 kHz...with IEC weighted noise (limited by driver protection circuit) at 1m"

In other words, this speaker is not "large" by any measure, and will need a sub to play low and loud.

I agree on the design’s low frequency capacity: You need a sub to play low.

On the «loud» issue, I can attest to the fact - having had them several days in my own rooms - that they play loud, very loud, with short-term peaks @2 meters or more in room of almost 130 dB on some occasions (without playing at or near max volume). So they play much louder than what is healthy if you sit 2-3 meters from the speakers.

These are some of the most dynamic, transient capable speakers I have ever heard. Which made me wonder what makes the gap between a big and a medium or small speaker.

Of course, these don’t have the mid bass and «mid driver» capacity of some of the bigger designs, but coupled with a sub I wonder if the S360 comes close to the rightful title of the «small big speaker».

 

[Frank Dernie]

They used to list more useful extension specifications on the website, at different output levels, they don't anymore, but that extension was not maintained at decent levels, as you would expect. They still produce a staggering amount of bass for the overall size, probably more than most floorstanders can manage.

They do go deeper than most floor standers.
The limit is loudness, the 3 models have different power available, mine, the silver, have 3000 watts peak available and when more than that is called for the DSP first rolls off the lowest frequencies. I have no idea how loud the bass is before that starts to happen but they get pretty loud. I have plugged them into a power meter and never drawn anything like 3 kW, but I don’t think I have a recording with prolonged loud bass at 20Hz to test it.
The software was broken initially but works fine now for stereo. I hardly ever play mine, I bought them to use for rear channels and sub-woofers in my home theatre but that functionality has not yet been added to the software so they just sit there. They work really well for streaming, but have a software volume control, which I hate bigly.
The bass is clean and impressive though, the 2 side mounted bass units have slightly more piston area area than the cone of a conventional 10” chassis unit.

 

[Soniclife]

The bass is clean and impressive though, the 2 side mounted bass units have slightly more piston area area than the cone of a conventional 10” chassis unit.

Is that per driver matching a 10", or the 2 combined?

 

[Soniclife]

Raising the crossover frequency from 80 to 160Hz is an option, but then you'd be forced to place the subs directly below the mains, which negates what IMHO is one of the main reasons for having them in the first place.

Why directly below? Is behind or if to the side not ok if properly time aligned?

 

[Krunok]

Why directly below? Is behind or if to the side not ok if properly time aligned?

I think the idea was to have the sub on the same vertical axis as small speaker as it will play tones over 100Hz. I believe Andreas ment it to be "nice to have" feature, not mandatory..

 

[andreasmaaan]

Why directly below? Is behind or if to the side not ok if properly time aligned?

True I should have said something like “near enough to the mains as to likely not be in an optimal location for subs”.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I agree on the design’s low frequency capacity: You need a sub to play low.

On the «loud» issue, I can attest to the fact - having had them several days in my own rooms - that they play loud, very loud, with short-term peaks @2 meters or more in room of almost 130 dB on some occasions (without playing at or near max volume). So they play much louder than what is healthy if you sit 2-3 meters from the speakers.

These are some of the most dynamic, transient capable speakers I have ever heard. Which made me wonder what makes the gap between a big and a medium or small speaker.

Of course, these don’t have the mid bass and «mid driver» capacity of some of the bigger designs, but coupled with a sub I wonder if the S360 comes close to the rightful title of the «small big speaker».

Absolutely. I imagine that coupled with a sub these are definitely "big" speakers.

 

[pozz]

Guys, it's HEDD Tower Mains vs. other mains speakers. PMC, ATC, etc. Huge monitors that are usually soffit-mounted, not just any big floorstander.

The general big vs. small discussion holds, but keep in mind that that Darko video shows HEDD breaking into the non-pro market. So the way you hear Heinz talking is mostly from the pro perspective, and then tailoring some of his comments to suit audiophiles.

These modular tower mains, like what's on offer by Barefoot and Neumann, are the new alternative to the huge box mains.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Absolutely. I imagine that coupled with a sub these are definitely "big" speakers.

What I find is lacking in the literature AFAIK is the total lack of definition of big, medium, small etc. which may or may not be related to this thread’s theme, which is dynamics. Kii definitely broke any code of conduct when they talked about their «small big speaker». Because we don’t have any definitions, marketing people can spin whatever story they want to. I am afraid this lack of universal language also leads to confusion in the dynamics debate.

I often use Genelec 1236 (see picture below) as an example of a big speaker. Check out its SPL capacity, size of the horn waveguide and other design choices, for example choice of a compression tweeter. Would any deviation from this make another speaker go into another weight class where dynamics get watered out? Opposite of boxing, the heavy weight speakers are the most dynamic ones? Everybody knows the weight distinction in boxing; why do people in audio talk as if their champion is a heavy-weight, even if he weighs only 20 kg?

Many years ago, Genelec wrote in detail about their design choices for the predecessor of 1236. The paper should be of interest to any speaker interested reader, if not only to realize which compromises needed to be done to go big (real big, not fake big). I think this design write-up is also of interest for the dynamics theme.

Design white paper of big speaker: https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/media/About Us/Academic_Papers/5939.pdf

Today’s big speaker version: https://www.genelec.com/sites/defau...o Monitors/1236A/1236a_operating_manual_0.pdf