Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[SIY]

Of course it is done DB.
My point was not that DBTs are invalid or never used in competitions/business etc. but that they are not generally required of diners who post their opinions on a wine blog.

Enjoying audio gear is I think more like enjoying wine than doing cancer research where the standards must be very high. If you are a manufacturer creating audio gear, or running a "Big Shot" comparison test like Tyll used to publish, DBT is the way to go. I guess my wording was not clear about that.

Don’t conflate “evaluating” with “enjoying.” That’s the confusing part.

 

[pma]

I recognize that this is Audio Science Review

Not much science here, however. Rather empty statement in the forum name.

 

[Maki]

Bias has different meanings and Googling turns up very specific examples like McGurk which may or may not often apply to HiFi.
Here we use it much more broadly.
But, to laymen, it is pejorative.
Bias and prejudice are what the other guy has. Good intuition and insight are what I have.

So I agree with Hon that it is not the best term to throw at newbies on their first visit.

What about "biasing" in the context of amplification? Think of the poor transistors and vacuum tubes.

 

[Blumlein 88]

What about "biasing" in the context of amplification? Think of the poor transistors and vacuum tubes.

Some people think fully biasing as in class A operation is the best too.

 

[Maki]

Some people think fully biasing as in class A operation is the best too.

It's the best at keeping my hands warm in the winter, that's for sure.

 

[krabapple]

I asked Google about "perceptual bias." Lots of junk, of course. The only substantial piece I found-- a genuine research project based on the perception of colors--concluded that bias quickly fades or even disappears completely--over a short time. I don't think "bias" is a helpful term to throw around in the context of friendly audiofiley discussions; it's too easily weaponized and has unhappy moral overtones.

It's also easy to draw bad conclusions from Google searches

Sensory testing, product testing are well-established fields. Research on perceptual bias underlies their methods. You might start with textbooks.

 

[krabapple]

For a very few “golden ears” posters perhaps. The vast majority of posts are “harman curve” this and “SINAD” that, purporting some derivative silver bullet that supplants personal preference as if it’s a zero-sum game.

Telling people “your ears deceive you- you shouldn’t actually like product X over product Y! Buy product Y instead!“

Buy what you like. Be careful when making claims about its sound.

 

[Hon]

And, certainly, consider the father of the field, a Nobel prize winner, on whether bias or noise can be avoided by experience:

The term in question was/is "perceptual bias," not 'whatever kind of bias you can think of.' I should have cited the study: Nature -- perceptual bias. It seems to be an actual scientific study, not a secondhand report paraphrasing the ideas of a person whose only presence is that of a picture of him at the podium.

TIM was mentioned only as an amplifier performance factor that was previously unknown and, once identified, was addressed by some. The fact that it seems 'solved' and no longer relevant in the digital world is not relevant. The concern is that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Take, for example, radioactivity. But that doesn't mean I personally believe the virtual hoaxes and ridiculous claims that seem to swirl endlessly around the audio industry/hobby and are reprocessed again and again out of the mouths and the minds of babes.
Nevertheless, it is amusing to consider that speakers may be "talented"--as What Hi-Fi? so often claims in their carefree way.

 

[raistlin65]

The term in question was/is "perceptual bias," not 'whatever kind of bias you can think of.' I should have cited the study: Nature -- perceptual bias. It seems to be an actual scientific study, not a secondhand report paraphrasing the ideas of a person whose only presence is that of a picture of him at the podium.

What term would you use in place of perceptual bias? It seems very useful because it encompasses the effects of improper volume leveling, the general cognitive bias of expectation bias/confirmation bias that affects more than just audio, as well as whatever other neurological audio predictive coding effects might be happening.

As for scientific studies, they tend to be written for specific discourse communities with specific scientific knowledge. So they are often not useful references when discussing things with your average audiophile. In fact, because they can be difficult to read, I think they tend to invite more of the cherry-picking that a lot of audiophiles use to support their points of view or refute what we are trying to say.

BTW: That "person" at the "podium" you have referred to is THE person responsible for much of the work done on the fast and slow decisions referenced in the very first sentence of the summary of the article you linked to. Just sayin'

 

[Pdxwayne]

What term would you use in place of perceptual bias? It seems very useful because it encompasses the effects of improper volume leveling, the general cognitive bias of expectation bias/confirmation bias that affects more than just audio, as well as whatever other neurological audio predictive coding effects might be happening.

As for scientific studies, they tend to be written for specific discourse communities with specific scientific knowledge. So they are often not useful references when discussing things with your average audiophile. In fact, because they can be difficult to read, I think they tend to invite more of the cherry-picking that a lot of audiophiles use to support their points of view or refute what we are trying to say.

BTW: That "person" at the "podium" you have referred to is THE person responsible for much of the work done on the fast and slow decisions referenced in the very first sentence of the summary of the article you linked to. Just sayin'

Improper volume leveling is a bias?

Our ability to distinguish different loudness levels is due to bias only?

 

[ahofer]

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Jeez I abhor that quote/canard in the hifi context. It simply doesn't open the door to the idea that any old subjective opinion can be relied upon as a revelation.

secondhand report paraphrasing the ideas of a person whose only presence is that of a picture of him at the podium.

Now that made me laugh. That was an *interview* of Danny Kahneman, arguably the premier scholar in cognitive bias' effect on decision-making, who may just have authored a few scientific papers (including one of the most cited *ever*) on his way to a Nobel Prize.

Presidential Medal of Freedom, 2013
SAGE-CASBS Award for Social Science, 2013
National Academy of Sciences Best Book Award for “Thinking, Fast and Slow”, 2013
Cosmos Club McGoven Award in Science, 2013,
Los Angeles Times Book Prize for “Thinking Fast and Slow”, 2012
Talcott Parsons Prize, The American Academy of Arts and Sciences, 2011
Distinguished Fellows, The American Economic Association, 2011
John McGovern Award Lecture, The American Association for the Advancement of Science, 2008 Distinguished Lifetime Contribution Award, American Psychological Association, 2007
Frank P. Ramsey Medal of the Decision Analysis Society, (joint with Amos Tversky), 2006
Thomas Schelling Prize for intellectual contribution to public policy, Kennedy School for Public Policy, Harvard University, 2006
Kampe de Feriet Award, Society for Information Processing and Management of Uncertainty, 2006
Decision Analysis Publication Award (for best paper published in 2003), Decision Analysis Society, 2005 Grawemeyer Prize in Psychology (joint with Amos Tversky), 2002
Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, 2002
Career Achievement Award, Society for Medical Decision Making, 2002
Warren Medal of the Society of Experimental Psychologists, (joint with Amos Tversky), 1995
Hilgard Award for Lifetime Contribution to General Psychology, 1995
Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award, Society of Consumer Psychology, 1992
Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award of the American Psychological Association, (joint with Amos Tversky), 1982
Honorary Degrees: University of Haifa (2016),Stellenbosch University (2016), Yale University (2014), The Hebrew University of Jerusalem (2014);Cambridge University (2013); Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai (2013); Carnegie-Mellon University (2011); University of Michigan (2010), Erasmus University (2009), University of Rome La Sapienza (2007), University of Alberta (2006), Universite de Paris I and Universite de Paris IV (2006), University of Milan (2005), The University of British Columbia (2004), Harvard University (2004), The University of East Anglia (2004), University of Wurzburg (2004), Ben-Gurion University (2003), The New School (2003), University of Trento (2002), University of Pennsylvania (2001).

 

[oursmagenta]

Improper volume leveling is a bias?

Our ability to distinguish different loudness levels is due to bias only?

In the sense that it bias any conclusion you can make about what you heard.

 

[raistlin65]

Improper volume leveling is a bias?

If someone does a DBT of two DACs that measure so accurate that they sound the same, but fails to properly volume level them and feels they sound different, you don't attribute it to a perceptual bias?

Our ability to distinguish different loudness levels is due to bias only?

I have no idea what you mean.

 

[Pdxwayne]

If someone does a DBT of two DACs that measure so accurate that they sound the same, but fails to properly volume level them and feels they sound different, you don't attribute it to a perceptual bias?



I have no idea what you mean.

With different volume levels, when the difference is big enough, one would hear a different between DAC, for real.

What they heard is not due to pure brain induced imagination.

They just failed to construct proper comparison.

Are you calling this failure to volume match a "bias"? Is it a correct term to use?

 

[pkane]

With different volume levels, when the difference is big enough, one would hear a different between DAC, for real.

What they heard is not due to pure brain induced imagination.

They just failed to construct proper comparison.

Are you calling this failure to volume match a "bias"? Is it a correct term to use?

It's an uncontrolled variable in the comparison.

A small mismatch in loudness levels results in a preference for the louder of the two, which is wrongly perceived to "sound better" rather than being louder.

A large mismatch in loudness levels is easier to attribute to the difference in levels.

 

[Pdxwayne]

It's an uncontrolled variable in the comparison.

A small mismatch in loudness levels results in a preference for the louder of the two, which is wrongly perceived to "sound better" rather than being louder.

A large mismatch in loudness levels is easier to attribute to the difference in levels.

Would you use "bias" as the term to describe failure to proper volume match?

 

[SIY]

Would you use "bias" as the term to describe failure to proper volume match?

“Incompetence.”

 

[pkane]

Would you use "bias" as the term to describe failure to proper volume match?

It’s a bias because most people prefer the louder sound thinking it sounds better. Just like other biases, if left uncontrolled, this results in a false preference. If we didn’t have the preference based on level, there would be no need to control for it.

 

[Pdxwayne]

“Incompetence.”

Yeah, for ASR long term members, this would be proper term to use.

For new comers to ASR, your term and the term used by others, would scare them off....

 

[raistlin65]

With different volume levels, when the difference is big enough, one would hear a different between DAC, for real.

What they heard is not due to pure brain induced imagination.

They just failed to construct proper comparison.

Are you calling this failure to volume match a "bias"? Is it a correct term to use?

Cognitive biases are not all "imagination." They are often a failure of reason.

In the example I described, because the brain is unable to determine that the volume levels are different, it incorrectly attributes the difference in sound to the DACs sounding different.