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What is your audio Philosophy?

restorer-john

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I bet I could make some gear that measured well but sounded bad. I would just need to know what your tests were missing and exploit that; the implication being that although a normal designer wouldn't do it deliberately, they might do it inadvertently.

There were some fabulous examples of that in the 1970s. And also around the "DC-Daylight" era in the late 70s/early 80s. I have some gear that measures spectacularly (power amplifiers) that simply sound average.

Around the time of Matti Otala and the whole TIM (transient inter-modulation distortion) 'discovery' period, things really changed. NFB stopped being the cure all. Amplifiers ended up testing 'worse' but sounding better.

Then, along came very fast, very linear semiconductors, RETs, LAPTs and we got the best of both worlds- fast, linear and great sounding. Until the Japanese stockmarket crash and the 'lost decade' of essentially no development for audio related linear devices.
 

Wombat

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I am sorry that V-Fets were abandoned after a very brief interlude.
 

svart-hvitt

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I'm surprised that a lot of people's philosophy seems to be somewhat similar to mine in what they are looking for in an audio system. And that is....how does it sound?

As some of you know, I'm pretty subjective in the way I approach audio. Having first admitted all the faults of the wonderful device that is the ear and the brain in subjective listening like short term memory, subjective bias, fooling oneself, not as sensitive in some regions as one may think.... I put extreme faith in what I hear as being the principle guide. This means I do trust what I hear. I do trust what I remember. And I find it counter productive when people tell me that I shouldn't be hearing what I'm hearing. How did they know?! I certainly didn't tell them! :D

For me, the subjective approach is important and though we do hear differently and we do place different emphasis on things that we like, I do not think that we are all so vastly different from each other that we have tremendously different types of experiences. But regardless, it comes down to does this sound good to you. And if it does, pursue that. Because if all the theory in the world can't tell you what you are going to like and it is absolutely the only measure that matters.

Anyway, I am a fan of room treatments, they providing some of the best value for money I've spent. I am also a fan for purist two channel. I decided a long time ago I would rather have the best two channel setup I could have than a decent multichannel for the same amount of money. Once I reach my satisfaction with two channel, I may switch towards adding on multichannel.
So being that way, it means I like dual mono stuff or monoblocks. I like torroids, class A, balanced architecture etc. Not really concerned about cables though I do have thick ones. I also like the way dual subwoofers sound.

Having played acoustic instruments since I was young, I found that I gravitate to hearing acoustic instruments played in an acoustic space. Though close miking still tends to happen a lot due to recording limitations, I really do prefer to hear the space of the recording and the instruments placed within it. My priorities have been three main things.
1. Soundstage and reproduction of room ambience and space.
2. Detail in microdynamics.
3. Tone.

1. Soundstage - where I find things lacking is a seamless left to right integration. The sound has to come towards you but also go behind the plane of the speakers as well. Good reproduction of room space. I've only heard this in very few setups. This is the ability to place the room of the recording in your room. Not an easy task.

2. Detail in microdynamics can really push a system to be revealing. Microdynamics is a reflection of the speed of a system and this is how you can integrate very quick sounds which normally would collapse in to a broad musical mush. Microdynamics allow individual performers to express themselves and make things more realistic.

3. Tone is usually where things tend to fall down for me in a setup where other things may be done admirably. if it doesn't sound like real instruments - especially in the mids and treble, then it doesn't sound right to me. If a violin, guitar or piano sounds too "treble heavy" then that's not the system for me. I find amps have trouble producing a full mid range with weight in it. I've only heard a few amps that do convincingly deliver that real life weight. Bass can come across as muddy in many systems I've heard usually due to poor rooms.

That's about it.


An aside: I have had experience with blind tests and level matched tests and some people put a lot of trust in it which is great for them! For me, having seen the result of the tests - which usually comes to being "you guessed about random", I realized, the gear I listened to that sounded better still did sound better to me after these tests. They certainly didn't make the good sounding gear sound worse or the worse sounding gear sound better.
So you can guess what I did after that.
I would like to point out the null or "no better than random" result in DBT tends to be subject to all kinds of questionable intepretations which usually circle around "proof of no audible difference". It doesn't mean that.

I’ve never experienced bad sound coming from superbly measuring gear. True, mediocre gear may sound good as well.

In 2017 it all boils down to choice of active speakers (dispersion, SPL and bass capacity) and features of the playback box.

Though that is my subjective thought, I believe it’s pretty well supported by science on «what matters in audio playback».
 

Wombat

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I’ve never experienced bad sound coming from superbly measuring gear. True, mediocre gear may sound good as well.

In 2017 it all boils down to choice of active speakers (dispersion, SPL and bass capacity) and features of the playback box.

Though that is my subjective thought, I believe it’s pretty well supported by science on «what matters in audio playback».

Your second line is premature, I feel. I think effort is being made to get small boxes to perform like bigger ones for modern(small) habitats. Those of us with the space for big boxes with high efficiency big LF drivers are yet to be convinced. We have been able to do(externally) the DSP/ multi amp/ electronic crossover thing for yonks, just not all in the little box.

A DSPed big speaker should ideally outperform a small DSPed speaker(Hoffman's Iron Law).
 
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March Audio

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You should read my second paragraph again about people making assumptions and telling me what I heard.

It seems like you won't stop interjecting condescension every time I seem to speak about things like this. I've heard it before. I get it. I tried to be polite at first. But it gets tiring. You don't see me nit picking your posts do you?Do me the same courtesy please.

This thread is called "your audio philosophy". If you don't like my audio philosophy, move on. Do your audio philosophy, but keep me out of it.

I explained my philosophy and why it differs from yours. It wasnt nit picking, it was simple rational and scientific and I didnt make any assumptions about what you heard. It was a more general observation. So get over yourself and dont be so stroppy. If you dont want your views commented upon move on to somewhere that suits your subjective bent more appropriately. WBF will welcome you.
 

March Audio

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I bet I could make some gear that measured well but sounded bad. I would just need to know what your tests were missing and exploit that; the implication being that although a normal designer wouldn't do it deliberately, they might do it inadvertently.

I have certainly heard DSP demonstrations that have been set up using auto-calibration systems (so by someone's definition they "measure well") but listeners agreed sounded appalling.

So then they didnt measure well because someones definition was wrong. :) We have plenty of evidence from the likes of Toole that demonstrate the correlation of measured speaker sound and subjective preference.
 

svart-hvitt

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I’ve never experienced bad sound coming from superbly measuring gear. True, mediocre gear may sound good as well.

In 2017 it all boils down to choice of active speakers (dispersion, SPL and bass capacity) and features of the playback box.

Though that is my subjective thought, I believe it’s pretty well supported by science on «what matters in audio playback».

I think something went wrong in translation here...my bad. What I meant to say in second sentence was about mediocre gear MEASURING WISE. I didn’t intend to talk about big vs small speaker drivers.

No doubt, sound from these to specimens (both active DSP speakers) from the same manufacturer will sound very differently in many respects:
1236_ja_8010.jpg
 

Cosmik

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No doubt, sound from these to specimens (both active DSP speakers) from the same manufacturer will sound very differently in many respects:
Are they... p o r t e d...?
I didn't realise that brand had such a fatal flaw....
 

garbulky

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I explained my philosophy and why it differs from yours. It wasnt nit picking, it was simple rational and scientific and I didnt make any assumptions about what you heard. It was a more general observation. So get over yourself and dont be so stroppy. If you dont want your views commented upon move on to somewhere that suits your subjective bent more appropriately. WBF will welcome you.
I welcome cordial discourse, disagreement. .
But not yours. Leave me alone.
 

March Audio

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I welcome cordial discourse, disagreement. .
But not yours. Leave me alone.
Sorry your response isnt rational. You are posting on a public forum, to which I am responding. My original comments above were nothing but cordial and very much in line with the rationale of this scientific forum. Yet you then kick off objecting and want to imply its some kind of personal attack by saying "leave me alone".

Its simple really, if you only want responses that concur with your world view then you need to go to a different forum. As I sad, get over yourself. If you dont like or agree with the scientific viewpoint, Im not sure why you are here. You are only going to get upset. At least come up with some rational convincing counter argument, as "I like what I like" doesnt really cut it.
 

March Audio

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Garbulky.
"Assumptions, interjecting condecension every time, heard it before, nitpicking, do what I do, move on". Wow, what a collection of emotional comments.

Subjective beliefs are not universal. Ordinary mortals are susceptible to questionable beliefs - why shouldn't they be examined?

If one puts personal subjective(or objective} views here then a response can be expected.

That is not to say you are not entitled to them but once you publish them on this forum you have made them open to comment. That's how it is. Umbrage is not a credible response even if it makes one feel better.o_O

P.S. I am not my audio system and my audio system is not me.

This
 

svart-hvitt

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Are they... p o r t e d...?
I didn't realise that brand had such a fatal flaw....

This is, in short, the technology:

https://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/reflex-port-design

https://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/smart-active-monitor-sam-systems

https://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/minimum-diffraction-coaxial-mdc-driver-technology

https://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/acoustically-concealed-woofers-acw-technology

https://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/directivity-control-waveguide-dcw-technology

https://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/minimum-diffraction-enclosure-mde-technology

https://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/optimized-amplifiers

https://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/active-crossovers

https://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/laminar-spiral-enclosure-lse-technology

EDIT:

From manufacturer’s page, FAQ section:

How does a rear reflex port opening work? What are the benefits of such design?
The main benefit of a reflex port in an enclosure is that it enables the loudspeaker to produce low frequencies at a very low distortion level, close to the frequencies where the bass reflex has been tuned. This enables very linear low frequency reproduction systems to be designed.

The bass reflex port allows air to move in and out. The reflex is effective if the energy losses of this air movement remain small. Because of this reason the reflex port is designed so that the speed of the air moving in the reflex port remains fairly small while the port is in resonance.

The direction where the bass reflex port is facing does not greatly influence the work of the bass reflex. While it is in resonance the reflex port generates low frequency sound. This sound sums with the low frequency sound output from the woofer at other frequencies. The distance and location of the bass reflex port is designed so that this summation works correctly.

If the reflex port is not sufficiently large, the air motion in the port can become turbulent (non-linear). This will dramatically increase air flow losses in the reflex port. The higher flow losses can cause the bass reflex to stops working. This will change the low frequency characteristics of the loudspeaker. In Genelec designs we take care to dimension the reflex port to have sufficient capacity to support the system up to the maximum sound level output.

In several Genelec products the bass reflex port opening is behind the enclosure. When you push the loudspeaker close to a wall, a small gap to the wall is needed to enable the bass reflex to work at full capacity. Our experiences show that a distance of twice (2x) the port diameter from the wall to the enclosure back is a very safe distance.

Benefits of a reflex port opening in the rear of the cabinet:

  • It allows to have a maximized waveguide (DCW) area on the enclosure front
  • It minimizes acoustic diffraction as the front of the enclosure has no holes, vents or slots. This is especially significant near the tweeter.
  • The port opening, or flare, can be significantly larger, ensuring laminar flow up to high sound level outputs, high linearity and low system distortion at woofer frequencies.
  • It minimizes the audibility of air flow in the port because the port opening is faced away from the listener. When the air flow in the port generates noise, this noise is typically 10…20 times higher in frequency than the port tuning frequency. The flow noise is therefore rather directional, and by having the port opening in the back, this noise is well attenuated compared to having a port in the front and directing such noises towards the listener.
Source: https://www.genelec.com/answers-library#qid-1132
 
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garbulky

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Sorry your response isnt rational. You are posting on a public forum, to which I am responding. My original comments above were nothing but cordial and very much in line with the rationale of this scientific forum. Yet you then kick off objecting and want to imply its some kind of personal attack by saying "leave me alone".

Its simple really, if you only want responses that concur with your world view then you need to go to a different forum. As I sad, get over yourself. If you dont like or agree with the scientific viewpoint, Im not sure why you are here. You are only going to get upset. At least come up with some rational convincing counter argument, as "I like what I like" doesnt really cut it.
Subjective impressions is and must be open to being fallible due to a variety of factors. That's no surprise.
At this point it's you. I don't want to converse with you. Leave. Me. Alone. Please.
 

March Audio

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Subjective impressions is and must be open to being fallible due to a variety of factors. That's no surprise.
At this point it's you. I don't want to converse with you. Leave. Me. Alone. Please.
Do you understand this is a public forum? Can you quit the sob story? There was nothing wrong with my response to you. You can always put me on ignore. You wont get upset then.
 

garbulky

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Do you understand this is a public forum? Can you quit the sob story? There was nothing wrong with my response to you. You can always put me on ignore. You wont get upset then.
Alone, leave me, please?
 

Cosmik

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garbulky

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I’ve never experienced bad sound coming from superbly measuring gear. True, mediocre gear may sound good as well.

In 2017 it all boils down to choice of active speakers (dispersion, SPL and bass capacity) and features of the playback box.

Though that is my subjective thought, I believe it’s pretty well supported by science on «what matters in audio playback».
(Subjective impressions here). I have heard some active speakers. Almost all seemed to sound to me remarkably detailed especially considering their cheap price of the ones I heard. I fell in love with Emotiva's airmotiv powered speaker line up which I think delivers some very nice price and performance. They have a dual amp module per speaker and if I'm not mistaken they are actively bi-amped. My friend thinks that the tweeter introduces a coloration to the sound and didn't like them as much. I don't think he's wrong. But I thought it still sounded quite nice and pretty impressive for a 4 inch woofer.
What speakers were you experiencing.
 

svart-hvitt

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Thanks. Seems like they have taken their eye off the ball with that one. I would have thought that a manufacturer with a seeming philosophy of "Neutrality without compromise" would have corrected that anomaly. Even some of the most 'iconoclastic' audio companies seem to do some things because 'that's how it has always been'.

Is there anything in their measurements that is sub par?

Is science in consensus on this technology being sub par?

Or is it your opinion?
 
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garbulky

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Svart - this one looks interesting. Looks like a coaxial speaker.
 
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