Bad Sounding Equipment that Measures Well

[Maki]

if its oscillating at 1khz the SINAD at 1k can measure well

"Of cause you have to measure everything and at different levels... Measuring harmonic distortion at 1 khz is insufficient!"

I think no one here is claiming Amir is measuring everything.
But there seem many people here religiously claiming that the measurements show the whole sorry and there can't be more to it.

SINAD at 1k is nice to know and indicating a lot but its far from everything

Good thing Amir doesn't just run distortion at 1KHz. If you think there's something he's missing then maybe you should suggest it instead of concern trolling.

 

[Lambda]

How is it trolling?! i'm just pointing out the what ever one understanding this measurements already knows.
Measuring "everything" is hard and time consuming.

If say something is missing i get attacked for benign unthankful and/or told to do it better myself.
I'm in fact very thankful for Amir service to the community!

"THD+N versus frequency" is only provident with some tests
"THD+N versus frequency versus volume" is more complete

why not THD+N versus frequency versus volume vs. gain vs. laod impedance vs. ... it gets a lot. fast and i becomes confusing

who wants plots look like this? (i ) but most seem to want a single SIAND number.

Bad Sounding Equipment that Measures Well or Equipment that Measures Well Sound Bad.
It depends on the measurements! there is an Objective truth to that can be answered.

I can think of ways to sneak in "bad sound" that would not properly show up in the measurements.

 

[pma]

if its oscillating at 1khz the SINAD at 1k can measure well

"Of cause you have to measure everything and at different levels... Measuring harmonic distortion at 1 khz is insufficient!"

I think no one here is claiming Amir is measuring everything.
But there seem many people here religiously claiming that the measurements show the whole sorry and there can't be more to it.

SINAD at 1k is nice to know and indicating a lot but its far from everything

Good thing Amir doesn't just run distortion at 1KHz. If you think there's something he's missing then maybe you should suggest it instead of concern trolling.

Let me tell you a real life story. 12 years ago I designed a discrete preamp which became popular among DIYers. I myself built about 50 - 100 modules. In the beginning, everything was OK. After about 20 modules built, I heard complaints from several users and I myself also found an irregular issue with hum presence and a bit elevated THD. And it was not permanent, only time after time. I used a soundcard and an oscilloscope, but was unable to find anything. Then I took one of the problematic modules to VHF spectrum analyzer, 3GHz Agilent. And I got it. Oscillations at 253MHz and multiples, occurring occasionally. I found it depended on the producer of BD139/140 and its parasitic capacitances. After that, I re-designed the PCB and local frequency compensations and it was OK. So, at least in the design stage, audio measurements are insufficient and even the AP is of no help. And I am sure that not many designers go to GHz analyzers.

 

[Maki]

Let me tell you a real life story. 12 years ago I designed a discrete preamp which became popular among DIYers. I myself built about 50 - 100 modules. In the beginning, everything was OK. After about 20 modules built, I heard complaints from several users and I myself also found an irregular issue with hum presence and a bit elevated THD. And it was not permanent, only time after time. I used a soundcard and an oscilloscope, but was unable to find anything. Then I took one of the problematic modules to VHF spectrum analyzer, 3GHz Agilent. And I got it. Oscillations at 253MHz and multiples, occurring occasionally. I found it depended on the producer of BD139/140 and its parasitic capacitances. After that, I re-designed the PCB and local frequency compensations and it was OK. So, at least in the design stage, audio measurements are insufficient and even the AP is of no help. And I am sure that not many designers go to GHz analyzers.

View attachment 113321

Interesting, but hum and elevated THD would be picked up by the audio analyzer at the right time, no? GHz scopes and various other measurement tools are surely useful in the design stage - but is there an instance where the existing suite of measurements has been inadequate at revealing a consumer device's sonic flaws?

 

[pma]

Interesting, but hum and elevated THD would be picked up by the audio analyzer at the right time, no? GHz scopes and various other measurement tools are surely useful in the design stage - but is there an instance where the existing suite of measurements has been inadequate at revealing a device's sonic flaws?

Yes but you would not find the origin of the issue and fix it. And without exact analysis and finding the problem origin the measurements are useless. They would just tell you that sometimes you had issue but would give no hint how to fix it.

 

[Maki]

Yes but you would not find the origin of the issue and fix it. And without exact analysis and finding the problem origin the measurements are useless. They would just tell you that sometimes you had issue but would give no hint how to fix it.

Right, which is why I said the additional tools are good during the design stage. From a consumer perspective, just knowing a device has issues is useful.

 

[Lambda]

@pma thanks for sharing this story!
And you can't see it on the scope with transient/impulse response tests?
also i looked at your site and i like your designs.

but is there an instance where the existing suite of measurements has been inadequate at revealing a consumer device's sonic flaws?

dose a USB DAC that from time to time skipping a view samples count?
This can result in clicks only sometimes and its not relay showing up in the FFT except for slightly increased noise floor.

 

[Maki]

@pma thanks for sharing this story!
And you can't see it on the scope with transient/impulse response tests?
also i looked at your site and i like your designs.



dose a USB DAC that from time to time skipping a view samples count?
This can result in clicks only sometimes and its not relay showing up in the FFT except for slightly increased noise floor.

Is that "bad sound" or just a defective design? You could make the argument either way - I'd lean more towards the latter. Designs can be defective and still sound and measure good (while they're functional).

 

[Lambda]

Yes, but now its nitpicking over definitions a "defect" or bad design can make it sound bad (intermediate) and not properly show up in the measurements. As result it measures good but sounds bad.

 

[charleski]

If you want an amusing read you can take a look at Herb Reichert's recent review of the Benchmark HPA4. He compares it to the
Linear Tube Audio Z10e, an OTL valve amp using EL84s. We know the HPA4 has superb performance, but I couldn't find a review of the Z10e that bothered to measure it in any way. I think it's safe to say the Z10e is going to be markedly inferior in SINAD, though it's certainly possible to build a valve amp with distortion below levels that will be detectable to most people.

My perceived volume of the interior of Hopkins's guitar was diminished. My perceptions of wire snares buzzing on taut skin, a stage made of wood, and a fleshy audience, all clearly "apparent" with the LTA Z10e driving the Susvara, were less audible with the Benchmark.

It seems he missed the 'fleshy' distortion (and possibly microphonics) he was getting from the Z10e. Though he did manage to reconcile himself with this in the end:

Spending a month with the HPA4 forced this old triode-tube lover to first acknowledge, then accept, and finally enjoy a new type of engagement

hooray!

 

[Maki]

Yes, but now its nitpicking over definitions a "defect" or bad design can make it sound bad (intermediate) and not properly show up in the measurements. As result it measures good but sounds bad.

Yes we're debating definitions now. I don't consider flaws like USB dropouts when I'm talking about sound quality in the context of measured performance. In my mind those issues fall in the same realm as mechanical transformer hum (which can impact SINAD at the ear much more than the device's electrical SINAD) or flawed grounding leading to ESD induced failures. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Lambda]

those issues fall in the same realm as mechanical transformer hum (which can impact SINAD at the ear much more than the device's electrical SINAD) or flawed grounding leading to ESD induced failures. We can agree to disagree.

Yes. i would consider this also as bad sounding and a flaw of the device.

That's outsied the scope of Amirs tests but things like "ESD induced failures" and "USB dropouts" and "Transformer hum" are real. i don't think we disagree.

We can agree to disagree that this tings outside the scope of the test cause "bad sound" at the listeners ear.

Edit: your right! i see yout point. it makes no sens to debating definitions. i thing we are on the sampe page.

 

[mhardy6647]

I remembered seeing this in what I thought was this forum, but found the reference in Audiokarma. I have no reason to doubt that it came from our lord and master, but if I've misquoted him, I sure he'll let me know.​

The AES (PNW section) has a nice page with laws for audio engineers and von Recklinghausen is quoted with: If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it Measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing.​

​

Careful! First, that is a bit of fish story since I have never found the source of that line. It is attributed to a meeting at Boston Audio Society yet I have never found it. So the context is totally unknown.​

​

What is not unknown is that the late Recklinghausen was the key driver behind the IHF, the Institute of High Fidelity. IHF set standards for fidelity of amplifiers using measurements. Here is Recklinghausen talking about said standard: http://www.bassboy.com.au/getreel/site/classicamps/files/articles/ihf/article.htm​

​

"The new Standard will help establish design goals for audio engineers and at the same time furnish test techniques for validating them. For the audiophile, the new ratings will make possible a more intelligent choice among the profusion of amplifiers now available."​

​

He was also the editor of Journal Of AES for many years when papers were published showing the fallacy of sighted tests. As a member of review board/editor, he helped form and shape the current accepted standard of throwing you out of the room if you show up with sighted tests as your proof for anything.​

​

Finally, he was the chief engineer at H.H. Scott. In that world, folks did try to win the race with better specs so it is not out of reason that he would try to deflect that superiority by others in that regard.​

​

Speaking of that, I ran into your posts on a German forum where you had signed them as seller/manufacturer of audio amplifiers. Is that so?​

​

Back to that quote, if you indeed find that the true sound of something is better despite worse measurements, indeed those measurements are faulty. The problem we deal with in this topic is that imagined sound is substituted for what is really output by the equipment. Recklinghausen would never get behind that notion.​

​

Amir​

Founder, Audio Science Review​

​

I recalled this and suspect that from his impeccable engineering credentials, Mr. R would be spinning in his grave that the quote, if it is indeed his, is used to justify the subjectivist position that all amps are noticeably different when operated within their design criteria and competently engineered. He would certainly agree with the quote, but allow that the audible difference is measurable with the right equipment.​

​

Well, you know what Abe Lincoln said...

The source can (as I recall) actually be traced back to the BAS, and -- to their credit -- their online archive is pretty extensive.
Even if apocryphal (and I think skewed is a more apt, if generous, assessment), I still think it is profound and worthy of merit. Heck, just attribute it to me, going forward, if you like! I do have one aphorism for which I take credit, BTW: I call it Hardy's Law of Technology (from my days as a professional "Technology Strategist", whatever that meant): There is such a thing as too much technology.

As an aside - it is amazing how many of the bon mots that we learned in school are either way out of context or simply mis-attributed. Or is that bons mot?

PS It's funny how reviled the IHF standards (well... OK... the IHF power output standard*) became; I think "they" were trying to reflect in an objective and rationalizable way how to account for amplifier output performance with real-world signals (i.e., music), even way back in the 1950s and 1960s. Thanks to worldradiohistory.com we have easy (searchable!) access to magazines like Audio (and even Radio Electronics) and can read the 'first hand' accounts for context.

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio-Electronics/60s/1966/Radio-Electronics-1966-03.pdf
(see pg. 39)
__________
* some of the other IHF standards fared better over time

 

[Maki]

Yes. i would consider this also as bad sounding and a flaw of the device.

That's outsied the scope of Amirs tests but things like "ESD induced failures" and "USB dropouts" and "Transformer hum" are real. i don't think we disagree.

We can agree to disagree that this tings outside the scope of the test cause "bad sound" at the listeners ear.

Edit: your right! i see yout point. it makes no sens to debating definitions. i thing we are on the sampe page.

Yeah sorry for saying you were trolling, there are absolutely a ton of possible issues that can show up outside of AP measurements - reliability, mechanical noise, not to mention UX/interface, knob feel etc - whether or not they're included in the category of sound quality doesn't matter much. The first post I responded to seemed to imply that there was something immeasurable about sound quality - which is obviously not what you were saying.

 

[SimpleTheater]

Bad Sounding Equipment that Measures Well or Equipment that Measures Well Sound Bad.
It depends on the measurements! there is an Objective truth to that can be answered.

I can think of ways to sneak in "bad sound" that would not properly show up in the measurements.

Is there a real world example of this? I’m just trying to ascertain if @bboris77 has any merit in stating that Amir doesn’t listen at great length to products like the new Topping A30 pro amp. Is there a single product ASR has reviewed as top notch that sounds bad, or is it just hyperbole to try and keep “hi-end” audio from being exposed to just 1’s and 0’s.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

If you want an amusing read you can take a look at Herb Reichert's recent review of the Benchmark HPA4. He compares it to the
Linear Tube Audio Z10e, an OTL valve amp using EL84s. We know the HPA4 has superb performance, but I couldn't find a review of the Z10e that bothered to measure it in any way. I think it's safe to say the Z10e is going to be markedly inferior in SINAD, though it's certainly possible to build a valve amp with distortion below levels that will be detectable to most people.


It seems he missed the 'fleshy' distortion (and possibly microphonics) he was getting from the Z10e. Though he did manage to reconcile himself with this in the end:

hooray!

Herb Reichart has an interesting imagination. I've been following his written work for years now. He seems to think cables are important to how a system sounds. I will save you guys from reading the articles if you don't wish it upon yourself, but suffice to say, I don't trust anyone's ears but my own, and certainly not someone's who thinks power cables and speaker cables make an audible difference. Personally I ignore all of Herb's subjective opinions when it comes to reviews. Some links to the offending articles for those interested. Feel free to come to your own conclusions.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-23-audioquest-triode-wire-labs
https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-33-interconnects-loudspeaker-cables
https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-33-interconnects-loudspeaker-cables-page-2

I will give credit where credit is due and admit he's a very good writer and I enjoy reading his articles...

 

[Lambda]

imply that there was something immeasurable about sound quality - which is obviously not what you were saying.

Thanks!
Because i know we can measure way way more the we can sens with even the best ears!
(And i take offense if someone is implying the opposite )

 

[pma]

Right, which is why I said the additional tools are good during the design stage. From a consumer perspective, just knowing a device has issues is useful.

Yeah, but in this specific case the 253MHz oscillations in the diamond buffer output stage were excited only and only if you inserted a RCA link cable into the output RCA connector and the preamp was turned ON. It never happened if the components were interconnected and power turned ON after. The VHF oscillations were initiated by a steep surge wave when you inserted the RCA CINCH, because these components are designed so stupidly that they connect Live first and Ground after. It never happened if XLR was used. As you can see, sometimes the issues are not obvious and even may not happen during a proper sequence of test steps and may remain hidden.

 

[weasels]

Herb Reichart has an interesting imagination. I've been following his written work for years now. He seems to think cables are important to how a system sounds. I will save you guys from reading the articles if you don't wish it upon yourself, but suffice to say, I don't trust anyone's ears but my own, and certainly not someone's who thinks power cables and speaker cables make an audible difference. Personally I ignore all of Herb's subjective opinions when it comes to reviews. Some links to the offending articles for those interested. Feel free to come to your own conclusions.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-23-audioquest-triode-wire-labs
https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-33-interconnects-loudspeaker-cables
https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-33-interconnects-loudspeaker-cables-page-2

I will give credit where credit is due and admit he's a very good writer and I enjoy reading his articles...

I think you're being too kind. That's some Crowley-esque poetry there. That's not a compliment

 

[weasels]

Is there a real world example of this? I’m just trying to ascertain if @bboris77 has any merit in stating that Amir doesn’t listen at great length to products like the new Topping A30 pro amp. Is there a single product ASR has reviewed as top notch that sounds bad, or is it just hyperbole to try and keep “hi-end” audio from being exposed to just 1’s and 0’s.

As far as electronics... no, I don't think there are any examples. For speakers the only thing I can think of is the ELAC DBR62, which some folks have said sounded "dull" to their ears.

I don't personally share that opinion, my DBR62s are probably the most satisfying audio purchase I've made in the last 10 years.