Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Lbstyling]

Hi. I’m a new member but a long-time lurker. Years ago I believed the ‘high end’ nonsense (I still have some magic cables as a shameful reminder). Thank god I realised the truth before I had money... otherwise I’d probably be listening to a single-ended triode amp, driven by some expensive way to drag a rock through a plastic groove.

I think this describes many of us my friend!

I think many of the 'foo followers' think that we have not yet seen the light. But the truth is that I (for instance) as many others started where they are and ended up here. I'm only aware of people moving toward the verifiable generally, with the exception those who once they 'see the light', sadly realise they can exploit others as they were exploited themselves in kind.

For me, the 'dawning' came when I tried creating this with EQ on my speakers. I didn't know if I should laugh or cry!

The downside of following objective criteria over subjective, is that much of the personal 'drive' is trying to improve actual sound quality. This becomes very hard when dealing with actual physics rather than foo. Advancements happen, but not as quickly as one would like. Also, in truth, the journey has value more than the destination, so a nice progression path of 30 to 50 stages discovered over 10 - 30 years from a 'optimisation of dopamine delivery' perspective would be great (if you listening Santa?)

Anyway, a bit off topic, but I personally am a big fan of a chap called Adam Curtis. He has said a great many things, and I am sure much of it is arguable, but his comments in his interview for his latest piece resonate with me.

Curtis argues that one of the defining characteristics of the modern world is that society has sort of accepted that a persons 'individual truth' trumps facts. They can have their own 'set' and they are allowed to claim 'offence' if you suggest that the set the individual selects don't stand up to scrutiny.

As the family unit (under the terms society had previously agreed for the last 2000 years) is being redefined, people don't form the same communities that require interdependence like they did before, they form echo chambers of groups that they find online who agree with what they want to be true and simply echo each others agreed narrative. We no longer have many if any common narratives to live by like say 'Christian values'

I am a teacher, and without going into specifics, some of unexpected downsides to this for children (for instance) are quite surprising and perhaps scary.

Bit deep for a post, but I find it connects some how in my head!

 

[Zensō]

The downside of following objective criteria over subjective, is that much of the personal 'drive' is trying to improve actual sound quality. This becomes very hard when dealing with actual physics rather than foo. Advancements happen, but not as quickly as one would like. Also, in truth, the journey has value more than the destination, so a nice progression path of 30 to 50 stages discovered over 10 - 30 years from a 'optimisation of dopamine delivery' perspective would be great (if you listening Santa?)

So much of this hobby seems to be about consumption. What is the next magical gadget I need to purchase to “improve” sound quality? Objectivists take all of the fun out of it by cutting through the BS and providing simple answers to questions many audiophiles don’t really want answered.

 

[Lbstyling]

So much of this hobby seems to be about consumption. What is the next magical gadget I need to purchase to “improve” sound quality? Us objectivists take all of the fun out of it by cutting through the BS and providing simple answers to questions audiophiles don’t really want answered.

Yes, but......
To deliberately take the other side (just for the fun of it).

In the end, working objectively is only to improve your life subjectively anyway....no? Its a more successful path in life to follow the objective data (generally), but live is an experience, and those are only ever improved subjectively. Its a rather long book, but Tolstoy goes to great lengths in War and Peace to test this.

In short, placebos work if you believe in them, so which is the larger burden: to know its a placebo or, to not know?

You mention consumption. I think the pursuit of 'things' is a necessary effort in the absence of a greater aim larger than ourselves to avoid Nihilism.

Cant remember who it was that said 'if man ever achieved creating a perfect world, the first thing he would do is burn it down so he could have something interesting to do'

Your right of course, people in general don't want answers, they want a mountain 'worth' climbing.

 

[sergeauckland]

So much of this hobby seems to be about consumption. What is the next magical gadget I need to purchase to “improve” sound quality? Objectivists take all of the fun out of it by cutting through the BS and providing simple answers to questions audiophiles don’t really want answered.

I've seen this personally on other forums when I was regularly accused of taking all the fun out of choosing and buying equipment by my advocating only upgrades that can be both measured as an improvement and preferred audibly in a blind test. It was no fun if you can't just go to a Dealer and buy what you like. Especially if you have a friend or two with you that reinforce your choice, together with a bit of showing off on your part and a bit of jealousy on theirs

S

 

[watchnerd]

So much of this hobby seems to be about consumption. What is the next magical gadget I need to purchase to “improve” sound quality? Objectivists take all of the fun out of it by cutting through the BS and providing simple answers to questions audiophiles don’t really want answered.

I have the other point of view.

Objective measurements also allow one to say when something is 'good enough'.

If I like an integrated amp because it has the features I want and looks cool, but the SINAD is 100 dB, vs the SOTA 120 dB device, I can rest assured that it's below the audible threshold.

So then I can just buy what I want based on other criteria.

I don't think it takes the fun out of buying.

 

[watchnerd]

I've seen this personally on other forums when I was regularly accused of taking all the fun out of choosing and buying equipment by my advocating only upgrades that can be both measured as an improvement and preferred audibly in a blind test. It was no fun if you can't just go to a Dealer and buy what you like. Especially if you have a friend or two with you that reinforce your choice, together with a bit of showing off on your part and a bit of jealousy on theirs

S

I don't have a philosophical problem with buying things that have no measured or audible improvement, if you get joy out of the purchase for some other reason.

My reel to reel tape decks are not in any way an upgrade or improvement on my digital systems. They're a regression.

But they're sure a lot of fun for me.

 

[watchnerd]

Cant remember who it was that said 'if man ever achieved creating a perfect world, the first thing he would do is burn it down so he could have something interesting to do'

That also sums up why I have more fun with analog than digital.

Analog gives me something to do.

 

[Lbstyling]

In the (50s?) Betty Crocker had an issue with selling packet mix cake that Psychologists eventually solved. It became an early example of counter intuitive value systems that people have.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20171027-the-magic-cakes-that-come-from-a-packet

In blind tests, powdered egg tasted better, but the buyers claimed that it tasted worse when the item was on the shelf, and the product was not selling.

The truth? The 'experience' with the product was that buyers (mainly women) felt that it was too easy, and 'appeared' to be too little work to their families if they just poured water in a dry mix. It didn't 'show' that they cared.

So Betty Crocker removed the powdered egg. The buyer was now to add their own 'Fresh' egg.

It sold in record numbers.

 

[Zensō]

People should buy whatever makes them happy. This is supposed to be fun after all. The problem though, is subjectivity taking complete priority over data; this opens up the door for snake oil salesmen, resulting in the mess that is the audiophile industry today.

 

[Lbstyling]

That also sums up why I have more fun with analog than digital.

Analog gives me something to do.

I would be lying if I said I had not considered at length the purchase of a Michell GyroDec and a bunch of lights, simply for the hypnotic experience of the thing spinning.
Also there is definitely something almost tangibly special about imagining sound being physically produced from the movement you can see of a record spinning. There is something specifically about listing to a crescendo gather and fall while the record stays unerringly constant in rotation. Is this last part just me? or is that common? I have often wondered.

 

[watchnerd]

I would be lying if I said I had not considered at length the purchase of a Michell GyroDec and a bunch of lights, simply for the hypnotic experience of the thing spinning.
Also there is definitely something almost tangibly special about imagining sound being physically produced from the movement you can see of a record spinning. There is something specifically about listing to a crescendo gather and fall while the record stays unerringly constant in rotation. Is this last part just me? or is that common? I have often wondered.

My Gyro doesn't measure quite as well as a Technics SL-1200GR, but it sure is more fun to watch.

 

[Inner Space]

In the (50s?) Betty Crocker had an issue with selling packet mix cake that Psychologists eventually solved. It became an early example of counter intuitive value systems that people have.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20171027-the-magic-cakes-that-come-from-a-packet

In blind tests, powdered egg tasted better, but the buyers claimed that it tasted worse when the item was on the shelf, and the product was not selling.

The truth? The 'experience' with the product was that buyers (mainly women) felt that it was too easy, and 'appeared' to be too little work to their families if they just poured water in a dry mix. It didn't 'show' that they cared.

So Betty Crocker removed the powdered egg. The buyer was now to add their own 'Fresh' egg.

It sold in record numbers.

Yes, this reaction was reported in one of Vance Packard's books. Personally I think it substantially explains the burn-in stuff some people do. Just buying a new whatever isn't enough - too easy, too little work, doesn't cement ownership, doesn't show commitment, doesn't show sweat and tears. So folks roll up their sleeves and work that thing for hundreds of hours. That's the equivalent of the fresh egg.

Another thing Packard reported was Ford's market research for a new car ... it had anti-dive geometry for safe, level braking. But civilian testers felt the brakes were weak. Ford changed the anti-dive for mild pro-dive ... no other changes ... the testers loved the strong brakes.

 

[Wes]

[1] advocating only upgrades that can be both measured as an improvement and preferred audibly in a blind test. It was no fun if you can't just go to a Dealer and buy what you like.


[2] Especially if you have a friend or two with you that reinforce your choice, together with a bit of showing off on your part and a bit of jealousy on theirs

S

broke up your post for the to different points in it

1. Once you reach an "indifference point" (infinity for speakers; $200 maybe $200 for electronics) you should buy based on looks, ergonomics, knob feel or whatever

2. The solution here is to buy an ecosystem or a hospital in a poor country then show off to your friends how much you have improved the world

 

[watchnerd]

broke up your post for the to different points in it

1. Once you reach an "indifference point" (infinity for speakers; $200 maybe $200 for electronics) you should buy based on looks, ergonomics, knob feel or whatever

I unashamedly embrace this.

There is nothing wrong with buying nice things just because they're nice.

 

[Lbstyling]

I unashamedly embrace this.

There is nothing wrong with buying nice things just because they're nice.

I think the role of distortion (THD, but more IMD (if you can get correct measurement!)) is being underestimated generally. We all have to accept a limit point to the ratio for the improvement of SQ vs cost for it, BUT distortion is audible in the vast majority of speakers, its just rolled in with the '20% other' preference in Toole's research. I bought several pairs of speaker to investigate this(Kali LP6, Behringer 2031A, Revel M105, KEF R3, Infinity r152) , and Its not all Spinorama, even with the bass crossed over to a super low distortion 15 inch bass driver (to correct for the low end IMD modulating the mids on a small standmount.)

I feel Amir is of the same opinion now reading into his reviews.

-30db distortion or higher is audible and even common in speakers at the playback level people use, especially on 'peaks' in classical music, even with the bass removed from the equation. You can of course argue that a person is pushing a given model too hard if they are getting -25 or -30db 2nd or 3rd harmonics, but they are usually limited by aesthetics and space, so would need higher performance in the same or similar form factor, hence may need to spend more on some Revels or similar.

 

[Robin L]

The thing I miss the most about vinyl is the ritual of going to the record store with friends on a Friday night with a wad of cash in my pocket. It always felt a bit like a treasure hunt. We’d bring home our collective finds and listen through the new arrivals as a group. Those that passed muster got played to death over the next months until they were essentially unlistenable. I would never go back to vinyl, but streaming is an altogether different experience, lacking in some regards.

I arranged a lot of my life in the past based on access to LPs, working in chain record stores to make promo trades to indy stores, working in radio to get promos, hunting down titles in thrift stores. At the end of this process I wound up with a pile of LPs I couldn't sell, so off to the thrift store for the lot of them. I feel your pain, but it does bemuse me no end that I now can find most of what I've lost on the internet, at YouTube and Amazon music. The rituals and addictive habits might be gone, but the music is still there.

 

[ahofer]

The thing I miss the most about vinyl is the ritual of going to the record store with friends on a Friday night with a wad of cash in my pocket. It always felt a bit like a treasure hunt. We’d bring home our collective finds and listen through the new arrivals as a group. Those that passed muster got played to death over the next months until they were essentially unlistenable. I would never go back to vinyl, but streaming is an altogether different experience, lacking in some regards.

That was me from 1975-1984, replaced by CDs from 1984 through a decade or so ago. There was also an intermediate step in the 1970s, at a time my weekly allowance couldn’t buy a single LP, when I would go to the Lincoln Center Music Library and listen to records there, looking for new stuff.

Yes streaming is different, but personally, I don’t find it lacking at all. It’s a much broader library, with the ability to listen at home any time. And the sound quality (and headphone comfort, when applicable) is waaay better. I get the palpable satisfaction of an album cover over Roon metadata. But you couldn’t press the album back cover and instantly listen to the recording mentioned there, or pull down recordings by all the artists in the ensemble.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Indeed. If you come to this site with the intent of questioning whether technically sound components sound the same then you will be met with scornful rejection. Personally I believe that measurements are valuable so I come here for the reviews, not the for above purpose.

 

[watchnerd]

I think the role of distortion (THD, but more IMD (if you can get correct measurement!)) is being underestimated generally. We all have to accept a limit point to the ratio for the improvement of SQ vs cost for it, BUT distortion is audible in the vast majority of speakers, its just rolled in with the '20% other' preference in Toole's research. I bought several pairs of speaker to investigate this(Kali LP6, Behringer 2031A, Revel M105, KEF R3, Infinity r152) , and Its not all Spinorama, even with the bass crossed over to a super low distortion 15 inch bass driver (to correct for the low end IMD modulating the mids on a small standmount.)

I feel Amir is of the same opinion now reading into his reviews.

-30db distortion or higher is audible and even common in speakers at the playback level people use, especially on 'peaks' in classical music, even with the bass removed from the equation. You can of course argue that a person is pushing a given model too hard if they are getting -25 or -30db 2nd or 3rd harmonics, but they are usually limited by aesthetics and space, so would need higher performance in the same or similar form factor, hence may need to spend more on some Revels or similar.

I'm not understanding what that has to do with buying nice things.

 

[murraycamp]

you will be met with scornful rejection

I don't think "scornful rejection" is accurate - at least for those genuinely confused and reasonably open to learning.