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Chord Hugo M Scaler - Stereophile Review (measurements also)

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Tks

Tks

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My point about people not having tried it was aimed at those who seem to have exceptionally strong opinions about it doing nothing, stating this as fact and with no doubt in their mind, some of these people then deriding others, such opinions being based on what they have read on a forum. The absolute certainty in their belief without having heard it seems quasi-religious.

What difference would the brickwall filter make to the sound?

For me, the soundstage felt more 3D, with greater separation (these are reasons that I adjusted volume to check if this was the cause) and improved transients - a more realistic and, dare I say it, analogue sound. The big thing for me was that transients were very noticeably improved and this might be why the improvement is subtle on some tracks and far more noticeable on others, aside from the quality of the mastering, etc. I could describe differences in particular instruments in more detail (the decay from muting of a cymbal or the difference in a softer impact on a bass drum on some songs, for example) but that's not something that would make any difference to the majority on here. These often subtle improvements amount to something greater than the sum of their parts, in my opinion.

I have a feeling that transients have a significant impact on the feeling we get from music but I am not sure that this is something that is able to be measured by the tests done here and some will argue that the heights hit briefly by some transients cannot be heard and thus don't matter - maybe that's true but maybe it's not.

Of course I would like it to be far cheaper but nobody is forced to spend money on these things and I have not regretted the purchase. The cost/value proposition really is subjective (although there are some people who will put down expensive products simply because they cannot afford them, much like putting down supercar owners because there's a speed limit on the roads).

Thank you,

Okay, so it does a bunch of things to the final audible sound it seems. Now the problem is, this runs up against the typical issue where these effects are probably imagined seeing as how blind testing isn't involved here. But let's for the sake of argument simply grant that this is all the case (even though some things are simply illogical, such as "soundstage improvements" seeing as how there isn't a single manufacturer that specs for a metric by such name). But lets say it does all of these things somehow.

Can you explain to us how upsampling/resampling (or whatever other function you feel is being engaged) produces each one of these effects in theory? Because I haven't the faintest of clues, especially with respect to producing all those effects all the time. As a bonus perhaps if you feel inclined, maybe shine some light if there are any differences between it, and a software implementation like an SoX resampler?

EDIT: I saw you mention Rob Watts quickly in another post. I just wanted to ask. Do you believe his claim of him being able to detect distortion artifacts lower than -300dB? I can't not think of when he made this claim anytime someone mentions his name.
 

BDWoody

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I would love this to have been built into a streamer - that would be a great product in my opinion. Do you class the Cambridge as 'sensible' and Chord as 'snake oil bs' due to price?

I'm pretty sure Auralic products do a massive upsample on everything.
 

spooky

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Right... Until someone can explain or show why my assumption is wrong. With... You know... Evidence.
I know, you want people to conduct multiple listening tests to give you some degree of proof before you will listen for yourself. I understand this already. I think it's better to say "I assume it does nothing" or "I don't believe it does anything" rather than stating that "it does nothing" as if it were a fact.
 

BDWoody

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I know, you want people to conduct multiple listening tests to give you some degree of proof before you will listen for yourself. I understand this already. I think it's better to say "I assume it does nothing" or "I don't believe it does anything" rather than stating that "it does nothing" as if it were a fact.

Based on (my) current understanding of physics, the likelihood of this product doing anything of audible value in comparison to any competent device without it, is such that I would bet a significant amount on that assumption.

Did I say it does nothing? I actually said it likely does what it does very well. Why do you continue to say I did?

So, let's stop going around and around until I have to report myself.

We're beating the long dead horse now.
 

spooky

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Thank you,

Okay, so it does a bunch of things to the final audible sound it seems. Now the problem is, this runs up against the typical issue where these effects are probably imagined seeing as how blind testing isn't involved here. But let's for the sake of argument simply grant that this is all the case (even though some things are simply illogical, such as "soundstage improvements" seeing as how there isn't a single manufacturer that specs for a metric by such name). But lets say it does all of these things somehow.

Can you explain to us how upsampling/resampling (or whatever other function you feel is being engaged) produces each one of these effects in theory? Because I haven't the faintest of clues, especially with respect to producing all those effects all the time. As a bonus perhaps if you feel inclined, maybe shine some light if there are any differences between it, and a software implementation like an SoX resampler?
I cannot do any of that - it's not something in which I have any expertise and I don't get pleasure from mucking around with computers these days.

Aesthetics and ease of use are also considerations for me when choosing equipment, but not at the expense of sound quality. The basis for a conclusion might be very much flawed but it doesn't necessarily mean the conclusion is incorrect - it simply means that I cannot explain why on a technical basis. ;) This allows my opinion to be disregarded, which is fine, but many others conclude the same and I cannot recall anyone getting this product and complaining on forums that it did absolutely nothing (I accept that people might be unwilling to say that but you also do not see large numbers of used ones coming up for sale and negative comments about products are usually somewhat elevated these days - more people will usually take the time to post negative comments than positive ones).

As I have mentioned before, the biggest thing for me was transients - particularly in percussion and strings. I'm not sure this is measured but I suspect that this is very important to the feeling that you get from the music. The problem with relating these sort of thing on this type of forum is that these comments are entirely disregarded, which I understand, given the nature of the forum, but it doesn't mean I am wrong. It just results in a circular discussion between those who have heard it and those who have not heard it. :p And yes, I am aware that the device in isolation does not produce a sound... :D

Rather than effects "probably" being imagined it might be more accurate to say "possibly" imagined - I am open to the possibility of possibilities. :rolleyes:
 

spooky

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Based on (my) current understanding of physics, the likelihood of this product doing anything of audible value in comparison to any competent device without it, is such that I would bet a significant amount on that assumption.

Did I say it does nothing? I actually said it likely does what it does very well. Why do you continue to say I did?

So, let's stop going around and around until I have to report myself.

We're beating the long dead horse now.
That was just a general comment about people saying it does nothing, although I see how you might have thought that was directed at you.

I agree that it is a circular argument between those who have heard it and say it makes a difference and those who have not heard it and say it makes no audible difference.
 

spooky

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Exactly right, as I said in my post. It works both ways. I get the result I expect.
It's why ONLY double-blind and level matched is a reliable way of showing whether there's a difference or not.

It's only after establishing there's an audible difference, that one can address the question of which is perceive to be better.


S.
I have had results that were not the ones I expected (the reasonably cheap USB cable, for example). Expectation bias does not always produce the expected result, although I do not doubt that it can be a significant factor.

I don't think that not having been provided with acceptable proof of what something does is a sufficient basis upon which to state as fact that it does nothing.
 

abdo123

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I know, you want people to conduct multiple listening tests to give you some degree of proof before you will listen for yourself. I understand this already. I think it's better to say "I assume it does nothing" or "I don't believe it does anything" rather than stating that "it does nothing" as if it were a fact.

It's just that with Audio, reproducibility is paramount. We want to hear tracks the way the artist intended them. Otherwise we would be listening to our equipment, not to the music.

that's why effects/benefits that not everyone can reproduce is met with a lot of scrutiny here. Is something different? What is it? how does it change the original track? are we reproducing sound waves in our rooms or are we making something entirely new that doesn't represent the initial work?
 

spooky

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I'll happily buy it, if someone can do more than claim it sounds better.

Don't go down the road of what people around here can afford... It's not about that.

You are also continuing to try to build the 'saying it does nothing' strawman. That's not the point. It does what it does probably very well... As has been pointed out. It just hasn't been explained how that makes an audible difference, other than through expectation bias.

Seems more that someone who rejects basic 'scientific' principles such as controlling for bias, or providing valid evidence could be considered the religious one. No faith in anyone (or their ears) required here. Just evidence...
I do understand where you are coming from. I didn't wait for such tests to be done (this is not a rejection of scientific principles) before I tried it and I liked what I heard.
 

sergeauckland

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Are you the first person in this thread to have actually tried it and concluded that it does nothing audible?

The cable you refer to is the same Dual BNC cable used by Rob Watts in his M-Scaler-TT2 combo, and it does make a difference. The value/cost discussion is not worth having. Having said that, I also tried their SPDIF cable for the connection between the streamer and the M-Scaler and detected no particular difference, possibly because both devices have galvanic isolation, so I went with a reasonably cheap USB. My expectation bias was that it would make a similar improvement to the Dual BNC cables that I was already using but my conclusion differed to my expectation.

Your description of the other forum sounds like people disagreed and so you went to a forum where people would agree? I've no idea about the background to you leaving that forum - perhaps it got personal and you left, which would be a shame but understandable if that was what happened. I have seen people there refer to you quite often and I haven't seen anything other than people saying what a shame it was that you left.

No, I haven't tried it, but I've seen the measurements so have no need to try it. Similarly, I haven't tried putting my hand in a fire, but I've seen the measurements of the temperature, so have no need to try it.

As to other forums, (there's more than one I no longer participate in), I look at them from time to time, but there's nothing there for me, just the same old same old uncorroborated and uncontrolled 'I heard this so it's true' and 'trust your ears' nonsense. My contributions there may have been appreciated by some, but they are seemingly in the minority now that it's like shouting 'There Is No God' in Church. Pointless.

I only trust what I can measure and/or what has passed a rigorously conducted double-blind and level matched listening test, done with sufficient rigour to be of statistical validity. One person saying what they hear at home is not evidence, anecdote at best. One person saying 'even their wife heard it' is not evidence. One group of audiophiles meeting at someone's house and all claiming to have heard it is not evidence.

However, properly conducted listening tests are very rare, so much of what we have to work with is either anecdote, or a Forum like this which has some proper measurements from people who know both what they're doing and have the equipment to make the measurements accurately.

If something measures well, but is well below commonly accepted thresholds of audibility, then it is incumbent on those who claim to hear differences or a benefit to produce the evidence (not just anecdote) of tests showing such improvement. Until that happens, I'll continue to be totally sceptical of all claims of improvement, or even of audibility, as the measurements indicate that there is none.

S.
 

spooky

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It's just that with Audio, reproducibility is paramount. We want to hear tracks the way the artist intended them. Otherwise we would be listening to our equipment, not to the music.

that's why effects/benefits that not everyone can reproduce is met with a lot of scrutiny here. Is something different? What is it? how does it change the original track? are we reproducing sound waves in our rooms or are we making something entirely new that doesn't represent the initial work?
We will never know how it sounded in the studio to their ears on their system (they will have produced the final sound based on what they heard through probably a variety of transducers) and the music would presumably be designed to sound as good as possible on a wide variety of devices. Perhaps the goal is unachievable as we don't have the artists ears.
 

spooky

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No, I haven't tried it, but I've seen the measurements so have no need to try it. Similarly, I haven't tried putting my hand in a fire, but I've seen the measurements of the temperature, so have no need to try it.

As to other forums, (there's more than one I no longer participate in), I look at them from time to time, but there's nothing there for me, just the same old same old uncorroborated and uncontrolled 'I heard this so it's true' and 'trust your ears' nonsense. My contributions there may have been appreciated by some, but they are seemingly in the minority now that it's like shouting 'There Is No God' in Church. Pointless.

I only trust what I can measure and/or what has passed a rigorously conducted double-blind and level matched listening test, done with sufficient rigour to be of statistical validity. One person saying what they hear at home is not evidence, anecdote at best. One person saying 'even their wife heard it' is not evidence. One group of audiophiles meeting at someone's house and all claiming to have heard it is not evidence.

However, properly conducted listening tests are very rare, so much of what we have to work with is either anecdote, or a Forum like this which has some proper measurements from people who know both what they're doing and have the equipment to make the measurements accurately.

If something measures well, but is well below commonly accepted thresholds of audibility, then it is incumbent on those who claim to hear differences or a benefit to produce the evidence (not just anecdote) of tests showing such improvement. Until that happens, I'll continue to be totally sceptical of all claims of improvement, or even of audibility, as the measurements indicate that there is none.

S.
Which measurements, for example, would be used for transient response to demonstrate that there is no difference?
 
OP
Tks

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I cannot do any of that - it's not something in which I have any expertise and I don't get pleasure from mucking around with computers these days.

Aesthetics and ease of use are also considerations for me when choosing equipment, but not at the expense of sound quality. The basis for a conclusion might be very much flawed but it doesn't necessarily mean the conclusion is incorrect - it simply means that I cannot explain why on a technical basis. ;) This allows my opinion to be disregarded, which is fine, but many others conclude the same and I cannot recall anyone getting this product and complaining on forums that it did absolutely nothing (I accept that people might be unwilling to say that but you also do not see large numbers of used ones coming up for sale and negative comments about products are usually somewhat elevated these days - more people will usually take the time to post negative comments than positive ones).

As I have mentioned before, the biggest thing for me was transients - particularly in percussion and strings. I'm not sure this is measured but I suspect that this is very important to the feeling that you get from the music. The problem with relating these sort of thing on this type of forum is that these comments are entirely disregarded, which I understand, given the nature of the forum, but it doesn't mean I am wrong. It just results in a circular discussion between those who have heard it and those who have not heard it. :p And yes, I am aware that the device in isolation does not produce a sound... :D

Rather than effects "probably" being imagined it might be more accurate to say "possibly" imagined - I am open to the possibility of possibilities. :rolleyes:

That's fine that you can't explain it in detail. But just to make sure, you hold to the claim that just simply the process of resampling is what is bringing to fruition all of these changes VS a system without the M-Scaler for instance?

Do you perhaps have any links I can go to, to perhaps learn about the process itself (be it a company whitepaper, or any other thing like peer reviewed work that contains the information we're looking for on how any of this works?). I don't need to know how it works for the M-Scaler specifically, just how this works AT ALL in any form. Be that a top down explanation, a simple abstract outline, or a specific phase in the change of processing where that phase is the transition point to where now that sound has achieved all those things you spoke of. [No for this request is also fine]

Because I agree with the things you say about the delivery of the claim not having much of anything to do with the level of truth of the claim itself. But you downplay the consequence. You say that this allows your opinion to be disregarded - as if that's the end of the ordeal... But that's not the end of it. Because your opinion/experience isn't novel, it's actually explained by brain phenomena (bias, imprinting, visual connection, and things of that nature that I mentioned before like enjoying music more when you're in a better mood, or hearing things that aren't there in the case of McGurk Effect, which I recommend you Youtube if you really want to see it in action for yourself, to see how linked our audio-visual system actually is).

People aren't disregarding your opinion, (as a complete disregard, would be calling you a liar). Instead we're saying the cause of your experience isn't what you presume it to be (a function of the devices operation, VS the mentally primed expectation bias that it most likely is).

You mention "no one complaining about it, that has purchased it". But I can also complain, no one that has purchased it, has come remotely close to getting material needed to prove it works with the results you claim it is capable of on a technical level.

You also speak in another post where you feel it's proper for folks like us to say: "I assume it does nothing" or "I don't believe it does anything" rather than stating that "it does nothing" as if it were a fact.

But we are saying that, and the longer time passes without anyone to come up with the requirements to prove the claim on some level as I am requesting, it makes our assumption more likely to be the case, rather than the anecdotal claims that you yourself are aware are quite disregard-able. In fact if you are aware of how the mind interpolates and conjures experiences based on multiple factors - you would be actually the one that would need to take on this same position as you advocate for us to take on. You can say "I think I hear a difference", until the day comes where you show the mechanism that accounts for the perception you've had, and can reproduce it. THEN you can say you actually hear it, and that we need to stop saying there isn't a difference, or that even our opinions of cautiously "assuming a difference" (like you advised us to take currently) are also now without standing and the claim needs to be degraded further from our side.

On a more meta level, you also need to think about some things you say. Like about how there's a religous sort of feel about the veracity of our exclamations and perhaps our default stances on things. But that begs questions..

See it from a third person view.

Company selling a product you rarely see anywhere. Claims to do borderline magic. People who buy it, defend it at the pain of disregarding any scientific or objectively verifiable stance. Even though this method of proofs is more logic leaning, than simply the anecdotal defenses of those who defend the device as if it stands on it's own and would benefit the world if it was a standard component of audio chains. Said customers join together on forums telling everyone things like the other poster "just open your mind" and "believe", and "just try it". With not much else.

Now us:

Bunch of people speaking out against the marketing claims of an owner who defies basic human capability, saying he can hear -300dB down (artifacts, let alone a clean signal itself). Want proof or at least explanation how any of these functions would produce these claimed effects in theory. Never get such proof even though it would be trivial for the company or any audio engineer to do. Warn people to be skeptical for the sake of not spending on money to buy things for claims that can't be verified (take note how we're not trying to ward people away from buying pretty things, or expensive things, we're warning against bogus claims usually fueled by marketing departments).

Yet at the end of the day, we're some sort of religion by some accounts? Religion of what? Telling people NOT to spend their money on things? What sort of selfish benefit do you think we're imparting upon ourselves upholding a stance like this?

To me, these sorts of characterizations make no sense. At the end of the day, it doesn't seem you're so far logically lost as some folks that stroll around here. But you can see, from an outsider perspective, one side demanding proof, is hardly in a worse position than those that posit something without said proof. Surely you would agree seeing as how you understand your own position since saying yourself, that your opinion can be disregarded (evidently because you understand like any normal person would, if you don't bring as much proof, it's only logical a position loses thrust)?

One thing I hope though, is you see your opinion isn't disregarded by "all on this forum". Or do you think our religious fanatics (or just me in this case particularly) would be typing this much for someone who is being disregarded?
 

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If something measures well, but is well below commonly accepted thresholds of audibility, then it is incumbent on those who claim to hear differences or a benefit to produce the evidence (not just anecdote) of tests showing such improvement. Until that happens, I'll continue to be totally sceptical of all claims of improvement, or even of audibility, as the measurements indicate that there is none.

S.
Being sceptical is different to stating that it does nothing and your statement also assumes that the measurements used are the only ones that matter. I don't know if that is correct or not, but I do know that I hear differences and that the tests used don't seem to support this, which makes me conclude based on personal experience that perhaps something different needs to be measured, if possible.

I do wonder if audible range is simply the parts of the signal that the brain interprets as being necessary to interpret as clearly recognised sounds and other parts of the data are deemed to be not as important but nonetheless are detected and used in another way that perhaps translates to a feeling that we cannot quite put our finger on. I am open to the possibility as the brain is not fully understood as far as I am aware.
 

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Frequency response. If it's flat to 20kHz at 0dBFS, then transient response can't be audibly any better than that, for anyone, except possibly audiophile bats.
S.

Don't forget moths. Some hear higher than bats... Maybe we should have the 'moth' standard. They are up over 300kHz. I wonder what music they like...
 

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I don't know if that is correct or not, but I do know that I hear differences and that the tests used don't seem to support this, which makes me conclude based on personal experience that perhaps something different needs to be measured, if possible.

Are you completely discounting the idea that with controls the differences might go away? As many are suggesting?

Before we rework the nature of electricity and sampling theory, maybe you could do a blind test.
 

Purité Audio

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I believe he concluded that it did indeed improve recreation of the original music?
John a tiny bit disingenuously said,
‘But "[improve] the recreation of the original music signal," as Chord claims, the M Scaler definitely did, with all three D/A processors I tried.’

Which it did.
Keith
 
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