You want transparency don't you......well DON'T YOU????

[rebbiputzmaker]

Fixing a computer is far harder and more expensive than buying a DAC that is not susceptible to the problem in the first place. If a $99 Wyrd is required to fix your $99 DAC it's no longer price competitive to another DAC that costs $99 but doesn't have the problem in the first place. Consumers don't know how good their USB ports are and the point of buying a decent DAC is that you know that it's good and should not be affected by the USB power supply quality like the Modi 2 and Bifrost was.

If you really think the Bifrost sounds audibly different then just buy a $99 Wyrd to fix the issue but that isn't how people recommend or evaluate products here. The Bifrost doesn't have a feature advantage to make it worth buying over a cheaper DAC anyway.



The engineers who designed the product can fix their own garbage because it's their responsibility. It's not the job of people here to diagnose the cause of problems in a manufacturers product.

Oh boy... There are also anecdotal reports that people had issues with other brands of dacs and none with a Schiit dac. How about cutting the brand trashing. Looks really foolish.

And if it's a computer issue, which it is you still blame the dac??? Whatever

And another point, it is kinda noticeable that many of these user issues are coming from larger PC system types. Seems to be somewhat what of a majority here??? What about endpoint users? (IMO a much better way to stream music anyway) Amir how about hooking up the microrendu and see if the problem dac??? is still a problem? Even a lowly Raspberry Pi? Maybe some more research?

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Oh boy... There are also anecdotal reports that people had issues with other brands of dacs and none with a Schiit dac. How about cutting the brand trashing. Looks really foolish.

And if it's a computer issue, which it is you still blame the dac??? Whatever

And another point, it is kinda noticeable that many of these user issues are coming from larger PC system types. Seems to be somewhat what of a majority here??? What about endpoint users? (IMO a much better way to stream music anyway) Amir how about hooking up the microrendu and see if the problem dac??? is still a problem? Even a lowly Raspberry Pi? Maybe some more research?

Far from all of Schiit's DACs have been measured. One has been here, a cheap one, and the results are so atrocious comparatively that it casts extreme doubt about the integrity of the maker who would even offer this. It may be presumptious to tar all Schitt offerings negatively based on that, but I would not touch them when there are so many other offerings out there. I don't find that foolish at all.

If, in fact, a Shiit DAC is susceptible to common, garden variety PC issues, why is that when others are much less so? To me, it points to an attitudinal or technical blind spot in their design practices. Hopefully, that does not mean all offerings by the brand are tainted, but unless proof is offered to the contrary, I think it is only prudent to stay away.

There are anecdotal preferences for just about anything and everything in audio. Believe them at your own peril if you wish.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Oh so you were in Bellevue, Bedlam for Thomas. We must have been roommates!

You bring up some points.

One thing that bugs me is, if there are usb grounding /power issues it is a caveman like approach as some here seem to take.

Ground noise dac bad me get new dac ooooo now no noise, dac good me happy!

How about addressing the issue at the noisy computer side. Many ways to do this, better usb cable split cable, etc, etc. Separate power, isolation. Does the dac even need usb power? Maybe just for the handshake, power can be pulled after that with a split cable. If it is CPU related, check cpu bios power/speed settings/ throttling. etc.

If everyone here is really about the testing, how about testing to identify the issue and then solve it. Otherwise I would just deem it sloppy science. Not to be confused with sloppy steve bannon.

There has been testing done. With most DACs we can't find anything from -140 db or less which is related to computer activity.

So if the caveman approach is that good what's the problem?

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

There has been testing done. With most DACs we can't find anything from -140 db or less which is related to computer activity.

So if the caveman approach is that good what's the problem?

Extremely small sample size for one, and not thought analysis of the root cause. All of a sudden the dac is just a black box. Is it the usb interface? The nameplate on the dac?

 

[svart-hvitt]

What is «clean»? When a mastering engineer receives files for final mastering, he/she often - or most of the time? - takes the audio files back into the analog domain. Who knows if this happened in previous stages as well, before the audio files got into the ME’s hands.

My point is, taking the audio file back into the analog domain again increases noise.

Some MEs think this is unproblematic; the tweaks in the analog domain, including extra noise, is part of the artistic choices.

When I run through versions of the same song through the decades - Roon is great for such comparisons - it’s as if newer version of the recent years are cleaner than the older versions.

So what do you think: Will audio get «cleaner» or does it make no sense to aim for perfection because perfection stands in the way for music and artistry?

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

Far from all of Schiit's DACs have been measured. One has been here, a cheap one, and the results are so atrocious comparatively that it casts extreme doubt about the integrity of the maker who would even offer this. It may be presumptious to tar all Schitt offerings negatively based on that, but I would not touch them when there are so many other offerings out there. I don't find that foolish at all.

If, in fact, a Shiit DAC is susceptible to common, garden variety PC issues, why is that when others are much less so? To me, it points to an attitudinal or technical blind spot in their design practices. Hopefully, that does not mean all offerings by the brand are tainted, but unless proof is offered to the contrary, I think it is only prudent to stay away.

There are anecdotal preferences for just about anything and everything in audio. Believe them at your own peril if you wish.

Oh so the anecdotal comments here on noise are acceptable, but other web sources should be ignored. You do realize that Amir did not have noise issues with the latest test dac, it was an earlier test on a different model.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Oh boy... There are also anecdotal reports that people had issues with other brands of dacs and none with a Schiit dac. How about cutting the brand trashing. Looks really foolish.

And if it's a computer issue, which it is you still blame the dac??? Whatever

And another point, it is kinda noticeable that many of these user issues are coming from larger PC system types. Seems to be somewhat what of a majority here??? What about endpoint users? (IMO a much better way to stream music anyway) Amir how about hooking up the microrendu and see if the problem dac??? is still a problem? Even a lowly Raspberry Pi? Maybe some more research?

You seem to be approaching this forum as if you have something to teach the very experienced people here, whereas it seems to me that what you are writing here (frequently) is something many experienced people have seen over and over (and over and over again) on most other forums and, as very experienced listeners and hifi enthusiasts, have rejected as implausible and marketing bs for the gullible.
Many of the people here have years of experience in the business too, not just experienced listeners and hifi users.
It is blindingly obvious to me that if a DAC produces spurious output when attached by USB to a computer it is a bad design. If anybody working for me had produced something which did not work, which is effectively what we are saying here since a USB DAC is designed to connect to a computer, he would be fired.
It is like saying and accepting that a piece of mains powered hifi equipment needs some sort of power filter to work. If it does why isn't the filter built into the equipment so that it works properly? It is a wholly ridiculous state of affairs.
Mains powered equipment should work properly when plugged into the mains. USB DACs should work properly when plugged into a computer. Simple and blindingly obvious to any normal person, I would have thought.
Which manufacturer has nothing to do with it, but over the last 20 years or so the hifi business has become more and more about unnecessarily expensive equipment and is more like a fashion business.

 

[svart-hvitt]

You seem to be approaching this forum as if you have something to teach the very experienced people here, whereas it seems to me that what you are writing here (frequently) is something many experienced people have seen over and over (and over and over again) on most other forums and, as very experienced listeners and hifi enthusiasts, have rejected as implausible and marketing bs for the gullible.
Many of the people here have years of experience in the business too, not just experienced listeners and hifi users.
It is blindingly obvious to me that if a DAC produces spurious output when attached by USB to a computer it is a bad design. If anybody working for me had produced something which did not work, which is effectively what we are saying here since a USB DAC is designed to connect to a computer, he would be fired.
It is like saying and accepting that a piece of mains powered hifi equipment needs some sort of power filter to work. If it does why isn't the filter built into the equipment so that it works properly? It is a wholly ridiculous state of affairs.
Mains powered equipment should work properly when plugged into the mains. USB DACs should work properly when plugged into a computer. Simple and blindingly obvious to any normal person, I would have thought.
Which manufacturer has nothing to do with it, but over the last 20 years or so the hifi business has become more and more about unnecessarily expensive equipment and is more like a fashion business.

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Ignorance is bliss.

I am fed up with ignorance myself.
Like one of the right wing politicians said when recommending something ridiculous "people are fed up with experts", which actually means "I know sweet FA about the subject but I have a strong opinion which is not supported by any facts so I have chosen to abandon knowledge in order to maintain my opinion".

 

[Cosmik]

I think some of us have to go back to when we first got into this audio malarkey back in the 70s (I was a kid). We assumed - rightly - that better sound meant more transparent. It was *obvious* that this was the sound that we hadn't had up until now, and we wanted it. 'Lust' would not be too strong a word. Big speakers, clean sound, ample bass. And it is as true now as it was then - unless people really, actually think that audio systems have got too clean? I, now, play 70s recordings on my modern (digital, DSP-based, active) system, and they sound how I dreamed they should sound in the 70s.

How has it got to the point where people are even debating whether they want their system 'clean' or 'dirty'?

 

[Cosmik]

I am fed up with ignorance myself.
Like one of the right wing politicians said when recommending something ridiculous "people are fed up with experts", which actually means "I know sweet FA about the subject but I have a strong opinion which is not supported by any facts so I have chosen to abandon knowledge in order to maintain my opinion".

I think this is a misquote. He actually said:
"I think that the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong".

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

You seem to be approaching this forum as if you have something to teach the very experienced people here, whereas it seems to me that what you are writing here (frequently) is something many experienced people have seen over and over (and over and over again) on most other forums and, as very experienced listeners and hifi enthusiasts, have rejected as implausible and marketing bs for the gullible.
Many of the people here have years of experience in the business too, not just experienced listeners and hifi users.
It is blindingly obvious to me that if a DAC produces spurious output when attached by USB to a computer it is a bad design. If anybody working for me had produced something which did not work, which is effectively what we are saying here since a USB DAC is designed to connect to a computer, he would be fired.
It is like saying and accepting that a piece of mains powered hifi equipment needs some sort of power filter to work. If it does why isn't the filter built into the equipment so that it works properly? It is a wholly ridiculous state of affairs.
Mains powered equipment should work properly when plugged into the mains. USB DACs should work properly when plugged into a computer. Simple and blindingly obvious to any normal person, I would have thought.
Which manufacturer has nothing to do with it, but over the last 20 years or so the hifi business has become more and more about unnecessarily expensive equipment and is more like a fashion business.

I am happy you feel you have nothing more to learn, especially from a mere heathen such as myself. Blindingly obvious, good choice of words. Would be much easier for some if the world was just black and white, but luckily for humankind there are many shades of gray, and even colors.

 

[blackmetalboon]

And another point, it is kinda noticeable that many of these user issues are coming from larger PC system types. Seems to be somewhat what of a majority here??? What about endpoint users? (IMO a much better way to stream music anyway) Amir how about hooking up the microrendu and see if the problem dac??? is still a problem? Even a lowly Raspberry Pi? Maybe some more research?

As someone that uses a HTPC for listening to music surely these reports and measurements are important for me to help make an informed decision on wether or not to buy a product? I’d be pretty pissed if I’d spent money on a DAC that had audible issues while I’m carrying out other tasks on my PC while so many others tend not to have this problem.

 

[Thomas savage]

I am happy you feel you have nothing more to learn, especially from a mere heathen such as myself. Blindingly obvious, good choice of words. Would be much easier for some if the world was just black and white, but luckily for humankind there are many shades of gray, and even colors.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

As someone that uses a HTPC for listening to music surely these reports and measurements are important for me to help make an informed decision on wether or not to buy a product? I’d be pretty pissed if I’d spent money on a DAC that had audible issues while I’m carrying out other tasks on my PC while so many others tend not to have this problem.

Nobody would say they are not important. Done right measurements are useful and to a large degree necessary. Some can at times also be misleading and need to be weighted as to priority.

 

[svart-hvitt]

I think some of us have to go back to when we first got into this audio malarkey back in the 70s (I was a kid). We assumed - rightly - that better sound meant more transparent. It was *obvious* that this was the sound that we hadn't had up until now, and we wanted it. 'Lust' would not be too strong a word. Big speakers, clean sound, ample bass. And it is as true now as it was then - unless people really, actually think that audio systems have got too clean? I, now, play 70s recordings on my modern (digital, DSP-based, active) system, and they sound how I dreamed they should sound in the 70s.

How has it got to the point where people are even debating whether they want their system 'clean' or 'dirty'?

@Cosmik , my point in my above post is actually (sorry for not being clear) that 70s recordings are muddier than 2010s recordings. Not all the time, but when great engineers use today’s best tool, the result is magnificent.

2L and Morten Lindberg have been nominated for Grammy 32 (label) and 24 times (Lindberg as leading technician for 2L). Try out this 2L favorite of mine (especially at this time of year), «Stille, stille vinternatt»:

https://tidal.com/album/18151467 https://tidal.com/album/18151467

I think this is a good example of digital tools in the hands of competent engineers. In my ears, this shows that engineers should aim for cleaner sound than in past decades. With DSP and SOTA speakers it’s easier than before to distinguish between muddy sound and clean sound. I am afraid some engineers don’t have speakers with enough clarity to understand this. «Clarity» in lack of a better word, may be what sets old and new speakers apart.

 

[Thomas savage]

Ideally the manufacturers would publish the measurements so consumers could make a imformed decision, in the case of a dac made to be plugged into a computer via usb one could look at how clean the process was ( does noise come through from the computer etc ) and then make a informed decision based on their own priorities.

If you want noise coming along for the ride because your a bit kinky and love your 50 shades of grey then go for it, grab fun where you can ..

 

[Blumlein 88]

Extremely small sample size for one, and not thought analysis of the root cause. All of a sudden the dac is just a black box. Is it the usb interface? The nameplate on the dac?

I've measured at least 7 DACs that seem immune from things on the PC or USB buss. Done so for numerous computer setups. So yes with asynch USB I generally treat dacs like a black box. Seeing the modi 2 results were very surprising. I think any engineers who can fix the DAC end for a few dollars would consider fixing the other end at more expense plus reducing function of the PC a very poor design decision.

 

[DonH56]

So, politics, blaming problems on the users for not having the right equipment or not understanding or enough expertise to know how to set it up, and engineers who can't understand what good sound is because their speakers are not good enough. What site is this again?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Oh so the anecdotal comments here on noise are acceptable, but other web sources should be ignored. You do realize that Amir did not have noise issues with the latest test dac, it was an earlier test on a different model.

Big difference between anecdotal reports of I hear drive noise or mouse clicks. Versus swapping USB cables the soundstage expands, I feel closer to the music, things seem more musical.