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You want transparency don't you......well DON'T YOU????

Discussion in 'Psychoacoustics: Science of How We Hear' started by Blumlein 88, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. j_j

    j_j Technical Expert

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    So very, very true. Do you want the cough, the creak from the HVAC, the echo from the spot on the balcony, the bass stored in that recess in the ceiling.

    Usually not. The problem with "accurate" (perceptually) recordings is that they get it all.

    You rarely WANT rather a lot of it.
     
  2. Blumlein 88

    Blumlein 88 Major Contributor

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    I do think you said only a defective item would act this way.

    Yet, I replaced the damaged light with no other problems from that CD player. I used it maybe 3 more years. AC, fridge, heat, other switching on/off of things never intruded or caused a hiccup or at least not one large enough to be noticed. I also saved that damaged light and tried it when I later had external DACs or newer CD players. Whatever noise was coming from that light didn't effect the other digital gear on hand. So some odd interaction one might not hit upon ever again.
     
  3. Soniclife

    Soniclife Active Member

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    I'd be interested in seeing some sort of evidence to back that up, or disprove it. It feels like it's true, but thinking things were better in the past is always dangerous. For example I can remember many instances over the years of idiots arguing with my wife (a state registered dietician) about diet, being ignorant does not make people any less convinced they are right, especially if they think they remember once reading something in a newspaper they agreed with. The internet does seem to have weaponized stupidity.
     
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  4. svart-hvitt

    svart-hvitt Senior Member

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    @Soniclife , this is just one piece of documentation (though I dislike the political bent in this research):

    [​IMG]
    If you read research in the social sciences, this (i.e. skepticism towards experts) is a big theme, so quite uncontroversial claim in those circles.

    To add to the complexity of the issue: I am skeptical towards lots of experts myself (like some social science experts), but not in cases of intelligent design in electric engineering...
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018 at 2:51 PM
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  5. Cosmik

    Cosmik Major Contributor

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    If we were to show that taking the advice of experts had resulted in a government adopting a policy that had killed thousands of people, and that the government had then reversed its policy, could we say that scepticism of experts was amply justified?
     
  6. Soniclife

    Soniclife Active Member

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    That graph seems to show not so much an overall change in the trust of the overall population as something else going on, and for the last 15 years or so as the internet has become more part of people's lives, the red line looks to have stabilized, and the blue edge up. When does that graph go up to?
     
  7. j_j

    j_j Technical Expert

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    I'm not sure. The number of luddite audiophiles has gone down a bit, but the number of evolution deniers and climate deniers seems to be snowballing, despite the overwhelming evidence for both from every direction.

    The whole anti-science movement is fueled by pretty much everyone who has something to gain by exploiting a group of people.
     
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  8. Blumlein 88

    Blumlein 88 Major Contributor

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    I've seriously heard it proclaimed that being stupid is a human right. I suppose that is okay until I have to start living with the consequences of chosen stupidity by other humans. It is to me mind blowing to consider some might choose ignorance rather than simply being ignorant.
     
  9. Wombat

    Wombat Addicted to Fun and Learning

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    If God could make a mistake it would probably be letting stupid or ignorant people not be aware of their stupidity or ignorance. :(
     
  10. Cosmik

    Cosmik Major Contributor

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    Isn't there an irony in these recent comments? The very premise of the thread is that experts are everywhere, but in the end you believe the ones that you want to believe. Whether that's because they're aligned with your personal philosophy, or because you once had such a great musical experience with a valve amplifier that it has influenced your judgement ever since, or because Joe Bloggs, recording engineer, produced a great album by one of your musical heroes and he thinks that digital audio is too clinical, etc.
     
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  11. Cosmik

    Cosmik Major Contributor

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    Perhaps the principle of the listening test should be applied to expertise.

    Assemble a group of audiophiles and, following a familiarisation phase, individually and in highly controlled conditions, flash up onto a screen small selections of conflicting pronouncements from different audio experts. The audiophile can spend as long as he wants looking at each pronouncement, with a selector switch to go backwards or forwards. He is also able to change the text size, font and screen brightness at any time. When he is ready to make his vote for the winner of each group of pronouncements, he can select the one that he thinks is closest to the truth.

    At the end, the votes are fed into a highly sophisticated statistical analysis from a statistics cookbook that produces the objective audio truth, with a confidence level.
     
  12. Wombat

    Wombat Addicted to Fun and Learning

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    The drooping upper frequency response choice is popular. This is interesting as this choice is similar to early hearing loss onset which most of us would not want. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Cosmik

    Cosmik Major Contributor

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    I think that aiming for such a frequency response is the tail wagging the dog. This response is what you might measure in a certain kind of room with a certain kind of speaker that has been set up optimally for that speaker's characteristics. It does not mean that it is a recipe to be applied to all other rooms and speakers.

    Far better to just set the speaker up optimally in the first place - and this means taking into account the speaker's foibles if it is not an ideal speaker.

    Even better than this is to aim for close to the ideal, neutral speaker.
     
  14. BE718

    BE718 Major Contributor Patreon Donor forum experimenter

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    Classic :)
     
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  15. DonH56

    DonH56 Major Contributor Patreon Donor Technical Expert

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    Alas, so is much of the science movement, speaking as one who was involved in R&D for a long time. Even the "pure" scientists follow the money in the form of contracts and grants, and gov't R&D is sometimes politically influenced IME/IMO. The problem of dueling experts has been with us for ages; is the Earth flat or round?
     
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  16. RayDunzl

    RayDunzl Major Contributor Central Scrutinizer

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    I would interject at this point that Round and Flat are not mutually exclusive, at least in my understanding.

    Pizza. Round (traditionally), and Flat (especially thin-crust).

    ---

    Oh well, I lose:

    upload_2018-2-15_12-31-56.png

    I like to spout first and research later. Makes posting more fun.
     
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  17. Phelonious Ponk

    Phelonious Ponk Addicted to Fun and Learning

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    “Myexperience has been that the audiophile hobby is really an intoxicating mix of faith, consumerism and need of a community to be a part of.”

    Throw in a heavy dose of elitism, and that’s my impression as well.
     
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  18. Don Hills

    Don Hills Senior Member

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    I would have thought that a rising upper frequency response would be popular, to compensate for the "early hearing loss onset". Or have I misunderstood your point?
     
  19. svart-hvitt

    svart-hvitt Senior Member

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    I asked (something like this, I don'r remember exactly, but you get my point), on a forum, if members would be happy with "the magic system" that played back anything flawlessly. The system was to be invisible and cost, say, 1000 dollars.

    People got angry. Didn't see the point of this question. And they were not sure if they would acquire "the magic system".
     
  20. sergeauckland

    sergeauckland Member

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    It's much like the reasons why active loudspeakers aren't universally popular, and valves, vinyl and horns still have a following. There are those for whom a HiFi system IS the hobby, something to be tweaked and fiddled with, not a tool just for playing music.

    Give these people the 'perfect' system, and they would have nothing to play with.
    S
     
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