Dante AVIO Review (streaming audio interfaces)

[PeteL]

Hey finally a language on this board I can speak fluently! In medium-large setups, are there admins initially brought in to setup QoS, etc? Or maybe Dante just has a list of recommended switches proven to work out of box?

Typically, large setups, installation involves a discussion between the AV Integration Engineer/designer, and the on site network administrator. Those systems are not deployed by Dante but Dante supply training and certifications. Yes there are switches that are more plug and play than others, but it's already an anormaly simple system if you only have to hook it up with no networking knowledge at all. You normally deploy a dante network if you need many channels, a routing matrix, and at least a few endpoints.

 

[Rja4000]

Hey finally a language on this board I can speak fluently! In medium-large setups, are there admins initially brought in to setup QoS, etc? Or maybe Dante just has a list of recommended switches proven to work out of box?

Both: they have a list of switches that are proven and you need some QOS settings for best (and headache-free) performance and stability.

I personnaly use very cheap Cisco SG-200 8 ports switches for home studio and some events.
You still need to use a browser to set the 2-3 QoS parameters properly.

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/switches/sg200-08-8-port-gigabit-smart-switch/model.html

Of course, if my money or reputation was dependant of the stability, I'd invest in more serious hardware, with fully redundant architecture and stacked switches, as an example.

 

[PeteL]

If the AVR has ethernet/wifi, then you can just stream the content as a file over ethernet and use the AVR's DAC. This is built into the AVR. There is no need for this dongle. Enabling Dante won't provide anything additional for this use case nor would you need to bundle a DAC with a Dante interface. The AVR already has the buffers necesssary for its ethernet ports.

If the AVR has no Ethernet capability, Chromecast or other dongles attached to the HDMI ports also supply a digital input to the AVR from the streaming which can use its own DAC (and DSP for room eq etc without additional ADC).

So, I just don't see the value in an AVR or pre/pro for providing Dante functionality as a sink.... Perhaps if the AVR is required to be used as a source for zone distribution in a home audio network and it can output to the Dante device to unicast or multicast to one or more sinks.

The use case for a dongle like this is really to hook up a IP enabled source to an analog mixer simply as an ethernet enabled DAC. This assumes the source is also Dante enabled and you have multiple sources to justify it. Studios can use AES/EBU instead for long runs with DACs that can take that input. But that requires a pair of cables for each source. The Dante audio over ethernet can simplify this with a single cable switched/routed network for all sources. This is the only value I see.[/Q

Sure, you don't need Dante if you don't need to distribute audio in a network. I just pointed that it serves a different purpose than USB. Not `ònly for pros, but as you said some house owner may want zone distribution of audio, we are talking big houses, people with money and complex desires/needs.

 

[BDWoody]

This is an interesting product.

I recently picked up a Lab Gruppen D 10:4L amp locally (Craigslist...$350) which is a Dante capable, professionally oriented device.

https://www.labgruppen.com/labgruppen/product?modelCode=P0CP6

Through the Dante controller, I have access to how it's inputs are handled all thorough the network. I suppose theoretically I could have an analog (or digital) input to the amp, set up one of these somewhere on my network and effectively have another place I can send that signal through the controller?

I know very little about Dante, and not sure how well it can be used in a domestic environment, but I like the idea.

That amp also has a lake processor for each output channel, so it's quite capable on that front as well

I need to update the firmware, but was thinking of sending it to Amir for 'the treatment.' Not sure how much interest in this type of amp there would be, but it looked like one I couldn't pass on to play with.

 

[Morla]

My two Audinate AVIO AES3 interfaces were really easy to integrate. Only had to set up the routing once. App is for free. I have ethernet in every room so that's kind of a luxury multi room solution for me.

 

[ctcwired]

Hey finally a language on this board I can speak fluently! In medium-large setups, are there admins initially brought in to setup QoS, etc? Or maybe Dante just has a list of recommended switches proven to work out of box?

It typically works without fuss on any managed non-blocking gigabit switch, especially when isolated. (The models being reviewed are only 10/100.) Tweaks are only needed when mixing with existing setups. Things like disabling Green Ethernet, QoS, IGMP etc, can help with long term stability, but it isn’t usually necessary. Mixing with existing infrastructure can be messy. PCs with non-real-time OSes like Windows, macOS etc. tend to vomit large frames onto the network in bursts, so even uploading at a slow speed can saturate a PHY link and cause minor latency spikes (on the order of 1ms) in switches. DSCP QoS prevents this, plus Dante Controller can help you monitor latency stability over time to make sure you stay within the window of your desired handshake latency without dropouts. If you don’t care about latency you can always just set it for the maximum (I think 5ms?) and you’d probably never have issues. Keep in mind even with 8+ gigabit switches stacked in series you’d probably still be able to get away with 1ms through them. Gigabit is pretty heckin’ fast.

 

[Rottmannash]

If the AVR has ethernet/wifi, then you can just stream the content as a file over ethernet and use the AVR's DAC. This is built into the AVR. There is no need for this dongle. Enabling Dante won't provide anything additional for this use case nor would you need to bundle a DAC with a Dante interface. The AVR already has the buffers necesssary for its ethernet ports.

If the AVR has no Ethernet capability, Chromecast or other dongles attached to the HDMI ports also supply a digital input to the AVR from the streaming which can use its own DAC (and DSP for room eq etc without additional ADC).

So, I just don't see the value in an AVR or pre/pro for providing Dante functionality as a sink.... Perhaps if the AVR is required to be used as a source for zone distribution in a home audio network and it can output to the Dante device to unicast or multicast to one or more sinks.

The use case for a dongle like this is really to hook up a IP enabled source to an analog mixer simply as an ethernet enabled DAC. This assumes the source is also Dante enabled and you have multiple sources to justify it. Studios can use AES/EBU instead for long runs with DACs that can take that input. But that requires a pair of cables for each source. The Dante audio over ethernet can simplify this with a single cable switched/routed network for all sources. This is the only value I see.

what exactly is this product's intend use?

 

[BDWoody]

what exactly is this products use case?

An addition to an existing Dante network would likely be it's main use.

Secondary would be to add zones through existing ethernet architecture without having to run audio cable I'd guess?

 

[Rottmannash]

An addition to an existing Dante network would likely be it's main use.

Secondary would be to add zones through existing ethernet architecture without having to run audio cable I'd guess?

Interesting product if one has Ethernet in every room.

 

[somebodyelse]

Is linux support still only via Embedded Platform?

 

[Morla]

Is linux support still only via Embedded Platform?

You mean talking to a dante interface using linux? I believe this is a way to do it

https://www.merging.com/products/alsa_ravenna_aes67_driver

(Did not test it but appearently audinate avio can do AES67)

 

[ctcwired]

what exactly is this product's intend use?

It's a cheap tool-box item that integrates with existing Dante in concert venues, live events, broadcast studios, recording studios, etc. Mostly pro A/V type stuff, with chunky mixing consoles and lots of routing flexibility needed.

 

[Michel Forbes]

You mean talking to a dante interface using linux? I believe this is a way to do it

https://www.merging.com/products/alsa_ravenna_aes67_driver

(Did not test it but appearently audinate avio can do AES67)

Got a chance to use ans test the Anubis and Nadac
Merging Technologies - Interfaces
MERGING+NADAC | HOME
Both use Ravenna and support AES67

Excellent information here :
https://www.ravenna-network.com/app... Audio Networking 2018-01-22.pdf?t=1559740374

 

[JEarle]

Hey finally a language on this board I can speak fluently! In medium-large setups, are there admins initially brought in to setup QoS, etc? Or maybe Dante just has a list of recommended switches proven to work out of box?

Yamaha made a great guide for configuring Cisco SG switches for Dante, I think they got fed up with the phone calls as they were one of the early adopters who used Dante to transport hundreds of channels. For transporting a few channels about any dumb switch will likely suffice.

https://sfo2.digitaloceanspaces.com...uploads/2020/04/cisco-switch-config-guide.pdf

 

[JEarle]

Yamaha made a great guide for configuring Cisco SG switches for Dante, I think they got fed up with the phone calls as they were one of the early adopters who used Dante to transport hundreds of channels. For transporting a few channels about any dumb switch will likely suffice.

https://sfo2.digitaloceanspaces.com...uploads/2020/04/cisco-switch-config-guide.pdf

In the touring world switches are normally configured at the shop using the companies default setup (and hopefully have the ports labelled). Most of the ‘default setups’ are based off the Yamaha guide I believe . Some companies have invested in switches like Luminex which are specifically built for the entertainment industry and have nice GUI’s and use terminology that is more in line with the production industry than networking, they make configuring or adjusting switches on site super easy.
https://www.luminex.be/

 

[ctcwired]

Incase anyone is curious about IGMP:

Dante can use both unicast or multicast, with unicast being default and multicast being preferred if you're trying to have one device send to lets say 20 inputs on other devices.

On a basic switch multicast traffic behaves like broadcast traffic, meaning it goes everywhere. Probably not a big deal with just a few channels, but if the setup gets real big an unrelated network device might be getting slammed with random audio bitstreams it doesn't care about. For instance on a Windows PC in Task Manager you'd see your ethernet port getting several megabits of traffic even though you're not downloading anything.

Without explaining the history of layers, basically IGMP is a protocol & feature that assists switches in learning who actually cares about a multicast flow and who doesn't. Dante supports IGMPv2, thus keeping your network very clean, if configured right.

 

[somebodyelse]

You mean talking to a dante interface using linux? I believe this is a way to do it

https://www.merging.com/products/alsa_ravenna_aes67_driver

(Did not test it but appearently audinate avio can do AES67)

Thanks. I'd seen that before but hadn't thought of mixing it with Dante. Unfortunately it looks like it won't work with kernels >5.1:
https://bitbucket.org/MergingTechnologies/ravenna-alsa-lkm/src/master/CHANGELOG.md
If I can borrow the hardware to test I can always install something older, or wait for a fix I suppose.

Edit: https://github.com/bondagit/aes67-linux-daemon includes patches for the Merging kernel driver, covering newer kernel compatibility and 32 bit Arm among other things. It documents testing with these Dante interfaces too, but needs the Dante Controller to configure them.

 

[m8o]

Per the "Dante AVIO Input and Output Measurements" section, wouldn't the "Dante AVIO Analog Output Measurements" section be markedly better if the level configurations were not set at maximum as noted? Rather the level used by the turn-key i/o mode?

Unless I'm missing something the complimentary i/o usage measured response looks phenomenal, strike that, pretty darn good, and I wouldn't hesitate to use this if I had the need (super long runs? or situations where typical induced noise on the analog line isnt being negated properly as normal for whatever reason?). What am I missing? I'm not being argumentative. I'm really missing why this isnt getting high praise if/when used as intended, an end to end solution. Edit: when compared to the SINAD degradation we might expect passing the analog signal thru a distribution amp and a reciever buffer.

 

[xema]

Cheap and usable, good enough.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Mixing with existing infrastructure can be messy. PCs with non-real-time OSes like Windows, macOS etc. tend to vomit large frames onto the network in bursts, so even uploading at a slow speed can saturate a PHY link and cause minor latency spikes (on the order of 1ms) in switches. DSCP QoS prevents this, plus Dante Controller can help you monitor latency stability over time to make sure you stay within the window of your desired handshake latency without dropouts. If you don’t care about latency you can always just set it for the maximum (I think 5ms?) and you’d probably never have issues. Keep in mind even with 8+ gigabit switches stacked in series you’d probably still be able to get away with 1ms through them. Gigabit is pretty heckin’ fast.

Sounds like a good case for putting Dante equipment on its own VLAN or physical switch depending on equipment needs / capabilities.