If "Tube Sound" Is a Myth, Why Tubes?

[Wombat]

I built tube guitar amps.

The tube sound myth is no myth if you are excluding HiFi. Amazing variety of sounds. Even the 'clean' guitar amps have desired distortion characteristics. It can be emulated with SS but only recently done very well with DSP chips.

If there is tube sound in your HiFi rig then you don't have HiFi.

 

[watchnerd]

I built tube guitar amps.

The tube sound myth is no myth if you are excluding HiFi. Amazing variety of sounds. Even the 'clean' guitar amps have desired distortion characteristics.

If there is tube sound in your HiFi rig then you don't have HiFi.

Instrument amps are a whole different animal as they're not reproduction devices.

My bass amp is tube based and, yes, I dork around with V1 and V2 tube rolling to change the flavor.

But they're designed to be sensitive to tube changes on purpose.

 

[Wombat]

Instrument amps are a whole different animal as they're not reproduction devices.

My bass amp is tube based and, yes, I dork around with V1 and V2 tube rolling to change the flavor.

But they're designed to be sensitive to tube changes on purpose.

Tube amps are capable of HiFi. Williamson designs and peers, frinstance.

The complexity, component voltage ratings/quality and output transformer construction makes most modern tube amps look like toys.

Tubes had/have a very wide tolerance for performance pass at end of their production line. Cherry picking was used for application sales.

Circuitry(feed back) was designed to accommodate this - up to a point.
The Russian and Chinese tubes that are rebranded as Western equivalents can be nothing of the sort.

There are some good quality tubes being manufactured now, mainly due to the guitar amp demand. High tolerance examples can be directed to the HiFi market. Longevity is still an issue due to certain materials and processes not being widely employed.

 

[watchnerd]

Tube amps are capable of HiFi. Williamson designs and peers, frinstance.

The complexity, component voltage ratings/quality and output transformer construction makes most modern tube amps look like toys.

Tubes had/have a very wide tolerance for performance pass at end of their production line. Cherry picking was used for application sales.

Circuitry(feed back) was designed to accommodate this - up to a point.
The Russian and Chinese tubes that are rebranded as Western equivalents can be nothing of the sort.

There are some good quality tubes being manufactured now, mainly due to the guitar amp demand. High tolerance examples can be directed to the HiFi market. Longevity is still an issue due to certain materials and processes not being widely employed.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, you seem to be agreeing with the general consensus of the thread.

 

[Wombat]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, you seem to be agreeing with the general consensus of the thread.

Yep, but not in terms of audio fidelity - rather, relegating tube-sound to preference.

 

[watchnerd]

Yep, but not in terms of audio fidelity - rather, relegating tube-sound to preference.

What is tube sound?

Upthread, you will see that many argue there is no such thing.

And if you believe tubes can be hi fi, then one must also believe they don't, necessarily, have to impose a sound.

 

[Wombat]

What is tube sound?

Upthread, you will see that many argue there is no such thing.

And if you believe tubes can be hi fi, then one must also believe they don't, necessarily, have to impose a sound.

Agree, with reservations.

If one has a 'HiFi' tube amp. These designs tend to date back to no later than the very early 1970s and would need a major restoration for current use.

It is possible.

SS can do it much better.

 

[Wombat]

P.S. When I was making guitar amps I got to know a guy who ran a custom transformer business that he took over from his dad. Seventy years in the business. He did it all. We were/are both EEs and got along well.

I talked about having a pair of Williamson OTs made. Outside of a small production run the price was even more horrendous. End of interest.

He was happy to do one-offs(guitar) PTs and OTs for me at a good price because once having given him my spec I accepted his conforming product.

He gave up on 'HiFi guys' who blamed his products for not working rather than their ignorance re specifying.

 

[Wombat]

P.P.S.

What I learned from the Radiotron Designers Handbook, and other learned texts, plus hands-on building experience cannot be gained from occasional Google searches or forum questions.

 

[pma]

For those who "believe" there is/is not a "tube sound", try the test

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-world-tube-preamplifier-about-2-7-thd.18392/

So far, no one was able to bring a positive ABX result. Original music file is tested against the one that passed through tube preamp and DAC/ADC chain. If there is a "tube sound", it should be easily recognised in such ABX test, right?

 

[Wombat]

For those who "believe" there is/is not a "tube sound", try the test

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-world-tube-preamplifier-about-2-7-thd.18392/

So far, no one was able to bring a positive ABX result. Original music file is tested against the one that passed through tube preamp and DAC/ADC chain. If there is a "tube sound", it should be easily recognised in such ABX test, right?

The tube signature will show up in a spectrogram/spectrograph. Harmonics.

There is no religious mystery involved.

 

[pma]

The tube signature will show up in a spectrogram/spectrograph. Harmonics.

There is no religious mystery involved. View attachment 99747

Show it to us, please. I guess you can make it. And then show us eventual audibility, please. Otherwise it is only an unsupported statement.

 

[mhardy6647]

This?

View attachment 99734

Shrine on.

... you crazy diamond...

 

[mhardy6647]

The tube sound myth is no myth if you are excluding HiFi. Amazing variety of sounds. Even the 'clean' guitar amps have desired distortion characteristics. It can be emulated with SS but only recently done very well with DSP chips.

Well -- and, mind you, this is just an opinion! -- emulating tube (MI amplifier) sound with ss stuff is akin to the same uncanny valley territory that, ahem, AI/robot sex slaves puts us into (e.g.).

 

[mhardy6647]

P.P.S.

What I learned from the Radiotron Designers Handbook, and other learned texts, plus hands-on building experience cannot be gained from occasional Google searches or forum questions.

Sure helps keep books upright on my shelf!

DSC_0935 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

 

[Robin L]

Sure helps keep books upright on my shelf!

DSC_0935 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

You need to get rid of that Murray Hill/Krips/LSO Beethoven symphony cycle, it's an abomination.

 

[Raindog123]

I've never known an audiophile who didn't upgrade his gear as his income increased, even if the performance gain was marginal, especially if one talks about audible differences

While I have definitely “upgraded” my gear over the years, it was more of a “technology refresher” than a “shiny objects chase”. While - probably like most of us here - I can now afford [almost] any audio system available to man, my philosophy is that one can have excellent sound for about $3,000: a grand for speakers, a grand for an integrated amp, and the rest for DAC-streamer-interconnects-subscriptions-occasional SW toys. That’s it. But yes, we do not know each other.

 

[Duckeenie]

Bragging rights were almost exclusively about cars, which everybody would see an know you had.

So while the rest of us were busy playing with our tubes Frank joined F1 in an elaborate attempt to get laid.

 

[mhardy6647]

You need to get rid of that Murray Hill/Krips/LSO Beethoven symphony cycle, it's an abomination.

It is indeed I was, in fact, sort of embarrassed when I realized it was in that photo (after I originally took it and shared it someplace) -- but it was passed along to us by a dear friend so it gets to stay. There's a lotta stuff here in a similar boat.
That said, I should put it a little more "off axis" and put a better cycle on that shelf -- there are a few of them here.
I still like the first one from von Karajan on DG -- mostly because I grew up with it.

That Beethoven guy -- he had it goin' on. (as some would say)
Not bad for a 250 year old, you know?

 

[Frank Dernie]

So while the rest of us were busy playing with our tubes Frank joined F1 in an elaborate attempt to get laid.

Ha, only drivers and photographers had time for girl chasing.
Now neither do either, what with data loggers and digital photography.