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Do speakers with good off-axis response require less acoustic treatment at first reflection point?

Josq

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The point is that the spectra of directed and reflected sound becomes even more divergent. To quote Floyd Toole in this article:

Thanks a lot. I agree that direct and reflected sound should be tonally similar - at least at the frequencies where reflections actually occur (at the lowest frequencies, there is no significant reflection from walls, right?).

If I understand figure 7.6b from the Toole paper correctly, the issue is not so much that the fiberglass sound absorber acts as a low-pass filter. The issue is that the absorber is a very imperfect filter, with a very messy angle-dependent absorption spectrum above 500Hz.

I guess the absorption spectrum of untreated walls is also somewhat messy and angle-dependent. So maybe we can think of absorbers that have very regular absorption spectra. Those absorbers would actually improve the quality of the reflections, making them tonally more similar to the direct sound than bare walls can do. Are such absorbers just hypothetical?
 

tuga

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Thanks a lot. I agree that direct and reflected sound should be tonally similar - at least at the frequencies where reflections actually occur (at the lowest frequencies, there is no significant reflection from walls, right?).

If I understand figure 7.6b from the Toole paper correctly, the issue is not so much that the fiberglass sound absorber acts as a low-pass filter. The issue is that the absorber is a very imperfect filter, with a very messy angle-dependent absorption spectrum above 500Hz.

I guess the absorption spectrum of untreated walls is also somewhat messy and angle-dependent. So maybe we can think of absorbers that have very regular absorption spectra. Those absorbers would actually improve the quality of the reflections, making them tonally more similar to the direct sound than bare walls can do. Are such absorbers just hypothetical?

You can use "deflectors" to redirect early reflections away from the listening spot:

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tvrgeek

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Everyone has their experiences. I found that controlling the 2-foot reflections to the rear is the number one key to great imaging. But how? In my last HT room, a small guest room, I used 4 ' x 7' x 2" OC boards behind the mains. I did not treat to the sides. The soundstage went from vague left-right-center to wider than the room. Really a double take when a sound came from outside the room! Side reflections were about 3 feet away. Experimenting, when the mains were within 2 feet of the sides, the imaging went fuzzy. Lesson is to experiment. Your room, your speakers, your preference. There is no right or wrong answer.

My current HT room is about as bad as one could design. I am forced to put my mains almost 8 feet up. ( 9 foot ceiling) They are within 2 feet of the sides. Imaging is terrible and unless a solid center, it is decidedly not from the screen. I got the response better by converting from boxed to in-wall plate using the same drivers ( 4 crossovers later). Brainstorming how to do better, but with doors where I want the speakers, not much I can do. One possibility is auxiliary tweeters moved down to the upper corners of the screen. Might make it worse, might make it better. Another thought was to use line arrays of 2 inch drivers in the room corners in a triangular enclosure so it does not intrude on the door frames. Might get some corner horn argumentation. I would need to find the old papers on how to wire arrays in order to control the phase relationship. There is some trick mixing series and parallel connections without using all-pass filters. In my old living room, I had the space for the mains to be away from everything so I had no dedicated treatment and a very decent soundstage.

I say this as the lesson you already know, but so many miss. The room is half of the speaker system. What works is a unified approach.
 

avanti1960

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speakers with wider dispersion of mid and high frequencies off axis are more in need of side wall reflection breakup and diffusion than those with a more narrow broadcast.
the need for treatment is more apparent the closer the speaker is to the side wall and can be minimized with toe in.
speakers 3 to 4 feet from side wall may not benefit from treatment.
the biggest indicator of need is the sound of phase interference between direct and reflected sound which results in slightly "dirty" sounding treble, sound that lacks refinement and is slightly edgy. also possible are the effects of comb filtering which also results in dirty, unrefined treble.
acoustic panels that have uneven 3d surfaces are excellent for breaking up reflections.
 

Ellebob

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going by the research and classed I have taken as well as doing this for 20+ years wide dispersion speakers give you options. the research shows that the first reflections can improve the sound when the reflection is similar to the response of the direct sound. If it is different than the direct sound if can decrease the sound. Horns or directional speakers do not interact less with the wall they have poor off axis response and need to be absorbed. that's not to stay hors or directivity speakers are bad as they often have more output, but the room is treated differently with them. use speakers that match your application

If you have a speaker with a good off axis response you have options. If you absorb the sound at the first reflection you will get more focus but lose some envelopment. In audiophile terms you might get better imaging but lose a wider sound stage. If you have no absorption you get a wider sound stage. With diffusion you often get an even wider soundstage, depends on type of diffusion. But you can get incredible envelopment with diffusion. If you use combo panels one can have the best of both worlds. The reality is with wider dispersion speakers you can tailor the sound to your liking by using various types of acoustic treatment or not.

A quick note on reverberation in a room. Typically we shoot for between 1/4 and 1/2 second in most residential rooms. Typically some absorption or diffusion is required for dedicated rooms and usually some on each surface. However it doesn't have to be at the first reflection points, you can still tailor that to your liking.
 
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S

Snoochers

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Wow thank you everyone. This has been very elucidating!
 
OP
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Snoochers

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going by the research and classed I have taken as well as doing this for 20+ years wide dispersion speakers give you options. the research shows that the first reflections can improve the sound when the reflection is similar to the response of the direct sound. If it is different than the direct sound if can decrease the sound. Horns or directional speakers do not interact less with the wall they have poor off axis response and need to be absorbed. that's not to stay hors or directivity speakers are bad as they often have more output, but the room is treated differently with them. use speakers that match your application

If you have a speaker with a good off axis response you have options. If you absorb the sound at the first reflection you will get more focus but lose some envelopment. In audiophile terms you might get better imaging but lose a wider sound stage. If you have no absorption you get a wider sound stage. With diffusion you often get an even wider soundstage, depends on type of diffusion. But you can get incredible envelopment with diffusion. If you use combo panels one can have the best of both worlds. The reality is with wider dispersion speakers you can tailor the sound to your liking by using various types of acoustic treatment or not.

A quick note on reverberation in a room. Typically we shoot for between 1/4 and 1/2 second in most residential rooms. Typically some absorption or diffusion is required for dedicated rooms and usually some on each surface. However it doesn't have to be at the first reflection points, you can still tailor that to your liking.
Thanks. What are these "combo" panels about?
 

Lorenzo74

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I can’t find it right now, but Matthew Poes & Gene did a video on their Audioholics channel that touched on this. Matthew stated that since acoustic panels (the canvas type) aren’t true full-range, you thus would be altering the tonailty, and that when it hits at extreme angles, the fabric of the panels actually mess the sound up a bit. So, his point was mainly that if the speaker has a good off-axis, you do not need side-wall absorption in a good room.


5:30

at 6:30 of above they suggest to NOT use bass trap but multiple subs for efficiency.... I tend to disagree and more favourably agree with this
go to 2:15.

on Stereophile there is an interesting interview of Art Noxon on Tube traps.

and about the importance of absorb bass and reflections you might trust this guy below...

best
 
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Lorenzo74

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Ellebob

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Multiple subs and bass traps. One doesn't negate the other. Multiple subs are about getting consistent bass in the listening area, bass traps doesn't fix that. However, bass traps can help and it is room dependent. A good bass response has to do with a combination of sub(s) and seat placement. We look for a good response that is EQable and not necessarily the flattest response. Bass traps often help with the EQable part. Obviously there are room constraints and we usually build bass traps into the riser in dedicated theaters. We can also build Helmholtz resonators for bass traps to correct certain frequencies. You can get a good response without bass traps with good placements and EQ but this is going to depend on the situation and none of this should be said as a generalized statement.
 

Ellebob

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Bass doesn't reflect the way higher frequencies do in small rooms. Bass mode problems will happen at certain areas in the room. You can use a room mode calculator to estimate at what frequencies and areas the room modes will happen in a room. If you play a sine wave at that frequency you walk the room and hear certain areas where the bass is louder and certain areas where it is almost absent. Often near the 1/4 and 1/2 points of a given dimension. The room mode calculators are good to give a rough idea of the frequencies it will happen. Getting the bass right makes a huge difference.
 

MattHooper

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FWIW (and without measurements I guess not much...)

I have a situation where one speaker has to be placed near a fireplace that is trimmed with reflective ceramic tiles.

It doesn't matter what speaker I put in the room - MBL omnis, Thiel (coax mid/tweeter), Spendor S3/5s, Joseph Audio Perspectives, Waveform (designed for good off-axis response), all suffered sonically when the first reflection came off that reflective tile (sound becomes brighter, hashy from the left channel). Fortunately I found long ago that simply putting a handy thick velvet curtain over that reflective tile when listening, while not broadband, seems to work "perfectly" in subjective terms, in taming that problem. Once those tiles are covered I can't notice any difference between the sound from the Left and Right speakers. (I also have a diffusion that I'll place here and there sometimes to play with acoustics).
 

Mnyb

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FWIW (and without measurements I guess not much...)

I have a situation where one speaker has to be placed near a fireplace that is trimmed with reflective ceramic tiles.

It doesn't matter what speaker I put in the room - MBL omnis, Thiel (coax mid/tweeter), Spendor S3/5s, Joseph Audio Perspectives, Waveform (designed for good off-axis response), all suffered sonically when the first reflection came off that reflective tile (sound becomes brighter, hashy from the left channel). Fortunately I found long ago that simply putting a handy thick velvet curtain over that reflective tile when listening, while not broadband, seems to work "perfectly" in subjective terms, in taming that problem. Once those tiles are covered I can't notice any difference between the sound from the Left and Right speakers. (I also have a diffusion that I'll place here and there sometimes to play with acoustics).

I think the clue here is “near” if the reflection is close to a speaker our brain can not separate it from direct sound and it’s much more obvious to us.
 

localhost128

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So it reduces first reflections, not the energy of them. Because first reflections have to reach the listener, otherwise they wouldn't be first reflections.

diffusers reduce the energy/magnitude of the (otherwise sparse/specular) reflection.

the first-order (focused, sparse) indirect specular reflection is converted into many reflections of lower magnitude, which are then dispersed spatially across a given hemisphere (and temporally for RPGs). a sparse reflection of finite energy is thus converted into many reflections which then must be of lower energy.

diffusers (eg, reflection phase grating diffusers) such as QRD or PRDs are effectively complex absorbers as they induce additional losses by edge diffraction, 1/4wave resonance, and viscous losses. poor construction (ie, open or exposed gaps at the bottom or to adjacent wells) will yield them to become even more lossy. Blackbird Studio C for example has 27tons of MDF on the wall to generate the broadband PRDs, which in turn yield a first-order reflection attenuation of -30dB. effectively anechoic spec.
 
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