Apollon Hypex NC2K Amplifier Teardown

[March Audio]

Of course I have a vested interest, John is potentially and erroneously damaging the reputation of our products, but also those of Apollon, Nord, NAD etc etc.

I just want this site to live up to its name....science... and not speculative personal opinion, or "a feeling in their water"

If John (or anyone else) has any actual information that supports his claims that there is a fundamental reliability longevity issue with Hypex products then lets hear it.

We do have this from @DS23MAN

To clarify my position, I am an external consultant at Hypex for several years and do a lot of beta testing on their products.

The problem in this discussion is mainly the reliabity of Suscon cap's, well I can't find any proof on the net they are shit.

Hypex is pooping out amp modules and smps modules in such quantaties that a problem would show directly. To be frankly, if you produce more than 100.000 modules a year and 1 person can keep up the warranty claims ( and failure research) (and repair)......

 

[March Audio]

Are you asking this to the exclusion of increased price?

As I said earlier I will happily match or exceed Brystons 20 year warranty if someone is prepared to pay $7000 AUD (price of Bryston equivalent amp) for one of our P252 amps ($1150 AUD)

 

[amirm]

Are you asking this to the exclusion of increased price?

No. I would pay more. I already said that earlier. Would happily pay $200 more for each amp.

 

[amirm]

Is it cost cutting with implied reliability issues, or is the cap perfectly fit for purpose? Ie damn good engineering practice to not over specify and increase cost where it is not necessary?

You are asking me questions you should have asked Hypex and provided answers here. Fit for purpose is not something we can determine without full reverse engineering the product. In absence of data, we are going for wide safety margin and that calls for better components.

Would you say a life of 22 years (15 according to Rubycon) in any way unreasonable?

Yes or No?

What type of question is this? Where did 22 or 15 come from? I want quality products and then the product can last what it lasts. None of your business frankly as the middleman trying to tell me to settle for less with some random obscure argument like this.

 

[amirm]

I have no doubt that you are sincere in your views here, and I also don’t doubt that in the vast majority of use cases, there will never be an issue with the chosen components.

He is not at all sincere. When he is a customer, he would never in a million years settle for what he is asking us to settle for. Did he build his amps out of cheap plastic or expensive machined aluminum? The latter, right? Why didn't he do an analysis and see if a plastic box would fit the purpose? Answer is that he wants his customers to think they are getting a high-end product even though the benefit to them may be zero. Yet he argues with us on better quality capacitors?

 

[Billy Budapest]

You dont know that Amir, thats wild speculation. Come on, you are better than that They would absolutely try to maintain the highest possible margin.

You havent demonstrated what the risks are.

Apart from Bryston, who charge a massive premium, who else does this?

I have to take issue with the assertion that Bryston charges a “massive premium.”

Usually, warranties are backed by insurance policies. The manufacturers make claims for insurance coverage when they receive a warranty claim from the consumer. The portion of the insurance premium attributable to an individual product is included in the cost of each item produced, potentially as a line item for the BOM of the product.

Now, the insurance premium Bryston pays to cover a 20 year warranty must be massive. I don’t imagine Bryston sells an incredibly huge amount of gear each year, so the portion of the insurance premium “baked in” to the price of each item is proportionally huge.

in other words, Bryston most likely isn’t charging a jacked-up premium over its cost. Rather, the warranty coverage is an actual cost line item that goes into the production of each unit sold.

It’s common in the industry (with “industry” defined as small hi-fi manufacturers) to take their cost per each item and then multiply that figure by between 5x and 10x to account for three tiers of profit (manufacturer, distributor, and dealer). Companies issuing the direct sales model don’t have to use such a large multiplier, however, for obvious reasons. In any event, the per-item cost of Bryston’s warranty coverage might be subject to the 5-10x price multiplier or it might just be added on to the total after the multiplier has already been applied to the marginal fixed cost and marginal variable cost attributable to each unit sold.

 

[amirm]

As I said earlier I will happily match or exceed Brystons 20 year warranty if someone is prepared to pay $7000 AUD (price of Bryston equivalent amp) for one of our P252 amps ($1150 AUD)

You must think there will be a lot of failures then to justify that kind of premium for warranty. Indeed simple math would show that you think your amp will break on average 5 times during that 20 years. So 4 years of average lifetime....

 

[March Audio]

You are asking me questions you should have asked Hypex and provided answers here. Fit for purpose is not something we can determine without full reverse engineering the product. In absence of data, we are going for wide safety margin and that calls for better components.


What type of question is this? Where did 22 or 15 come from? I want quality products and then the product can last what it lasts. None of your business frankly as the middleman trying to tell me to settle for less with some random obscure argument like this.

It was YOUR assertion for which I was merely providing an alternative view. I have no doubt that Hypex have professionally engineered and assessed their products.

You are the one asking for better components without any actual knowledge of the MTBF of these products.


You clearly havent been reading my posts. Please go back to here to find the answers to your question

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pex-nc2k-amplifier-teardown.16920/post-549647

 

[amirm]

Of course I have a vested interest, John is potentially and erroneously damaging the reputation of our products, but also those of Apollon, Nord, NAD etc etc.

Nonsense. No one is damaging the reputation. We are telling you what we expect in premium products. We are asking for what is common to ask for in any proper engineering environment as I showed you in Dave Jones video. Your beef should be with Hypex that this may become a sales issue for you for some segment of your market.

 

[March Audio]

I have to take issue with the assertion that Bryston charges a “massive premium.”

Usually, warranties are backed by insurance policies. The manufacturers make claims for insurance coverage when they receive a warranty claim from the consumer. The portion of the insurance premium attributable to an individual product is included in the cost of each item produced, potentially as a line item for the BOM of the product.

Now, the insurance premium Bryston pays to cover a 20 year warranty must be massive. I don’t imagine Bryston sells an incredibly huge amount of gear each year, so the portion of the insurance premium “baked in” to the price of each item is proportionally huge.

in other words, Bryston most likely isn’t charging a jacked-up premium over its cost. Rather, the warranty coverage is an actual cost line item that goes into the production of each unit sold.

It’s common in the industry (with “industry” defined as small hi-fi manufacturers) to take their cost per each item and then multiply that figure by between 5x and 10x to account for three tiers of profit (manufacturer, distributor, and dealer). Companies issuing the direct sales model don’t have to use such a large multiplier, however, for obvious reasons.

Why are you making all those assumptions? It just a calculated risk they take, they dont pay insurance to cover it. Product warranty insurance is what nervous consumers do (often for no reason) Its just rolled into the product costs which influence the sell price.

The Bryston is an expensive amp considering its performance. Its solid/good but nothing to write home about. The warranty is a marketing excercise which you pay for.

 

[amirm]

It was YOUR assertion for which I was merely providing an alternative view. I have no doubt that Hypex have professionally engineered and assessed their products.

Your lack of doubt doesn't bring us any comfort because you have no expertise in general in switchmode power supply and amplifier design let alone this specific product. Nor any volume manufacturing of the such.

And the above is assuming if such lack of doubt was sincere which as I noted earlier, it is not. You are giving us two versions of you: the normal member which strives for quality and the person selling stuff which seemingly doesn't sympathize with the rest of us who want the best.

 

[March Audio]

Nonsense. No one is damaging the reputation. We are telling you what we expect in premium products. We are asking for what is common to ask for in any proper engineering environment as I showed you in Dave Jones video. Your beef should be with Hypex that this may become a sales issue for you for some segment of your market.

So John says these amps have a reliability / longevity issue. This claim is without any proper basis.

Do you think that might damage the reputation of Hypex and therefore our products and deter customers?

Sorry my beef is with John because he hasnt demonstrated the assertion to be true.

 

[amirm]

So John says these amps have a reliability / longevity issue.

He says there is potential for it due to use of cheap capacitors. I say the same.

Do you think that might damage the reputation of Hypex and therefore our products and deter customers?

If their own decisions -- such as using lower quality parts or poorly measuring product -- causes this, then they are in charge of the situation. They can decide there is no impact and keep going (which is what they seem to be doing). Or improve the parts and potentially gain more business. This is no different than a car company deciding to live with reliability issues or improving them.

We have no responsibility here for censorship because it can hurt a company if consumers knew more. There is no bad intent here in any way, form or fashion given how I and and John have praised the product in this thread, and Hypex in general.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Why are you making all those assumptions? It just a calculated risk they take, they dont pay insurance to cover it. Product warranty insurance is what nervous consumers do (often for no reason) Its just rolled into the product costs which influence the sell price.

The Bryston is an expensive amp considering its performance. Its solid/good but nothing to write home about. The warranty is a marketing excercise which you pay for.

These aren’t blind assumptions. If Bryston is acting how most manufacturers act, then they are purchasing insurance coverage to back their warranties. You can bet that every warranty claim against Bryston by a consumer results in Bryston filing an insurance claim for the cost of the repair. That’s how it works. You might not operate your business that way, but you would be in a distinct minority.

 

[restorer-john]

Yes, it is a statistically significant thing if one repairs caps in 50 products and 48 of them are non-Japanese/top brands. And when that experience is not only shared by countless other designers, but is the basics of knowledge about reliability of electronics.

I see thousands of capacitors. I remove and replace them more than any other component. In restorations, you can use hundreds in one large receiver and the time spent assessing the suitability, specifications, size and pedigree is massive. Preparing master lists of substitutes and building BOMs is enormously time consuming. The time spent in removal, cleaning and replacement can be huge. But in the interests of another 40 years of reliability, compromises are never made. I use the best items for the job: Panasonic, Nichicon, Rubycon, United Chemicon etc.

Have a look at these pictures. They are minimum 40 year old Nippon Chemicon, Elna, Matshushita or Nichicon premium Japanese brand capacitors used in products ranging from low-mid range to TOTL. They are no Taiwanese, Korean or Chinese caps in there. (The Chinese weren't even around making caps back then). I often keep all the replaced components to show what I did should anyone ask.

I don't test every single one for tolerance, but there are no failed caps in this selection of several hundred. The Tantalums however- let's not talk about those b#stards.

Those orange chemicon low ESR caps are incredible. Those pictured are 45 years old! They epoxy sealed the base bung and they test better than brand new low ESR caps. It's almost a shame to remove them. But while you are in there, it's irresponsible not to.

There's a particular smell produced by a mildly failing electrolytic. They smell like fish. @amirm would remember. Funny huh? If something smells "fishy" it's likely a cheap cap failure. Ironic.

 

[March Audio]

Your lack of doubt doesn't bring us any comfort because you have no expertise in general in switchmode power supply and amplifier design let alone this specific product. Nor any volume manufacturing of the such.

And the above is assuming if such lack of doubt was sincere which as I noted earlier, it is not. You are giving us two versions of you: the normal member which strives for quality and the person selling stuff which seemingly doesn't sympathize with the rest of us who want the best.

I can see you are getting frustrated Amir because you are now getting personal and passing comment on my abilities and knowledge which you dont know. Your argument against my position would do better if you stuck to the facts and directly answered the simple questions I posed. I believe you are frustrated because you cant justify your position, hence all the side diversions.

I will refer you to someone who has direct experience with Hypex.

We do have this from @DS23MAN

To clarify my position, I am an external consultant at Hypex for several years and do a lot of beta testing on their products.

The problem in this discussion is mainly the reliabity of Suscon cap's, well I can't find any proof on the net they are shit.

Hypex is pooping out amp modules and smps modules in such quantaties that a problem would show directly. To be frankly, if you produce more than 100.000 modules a year and 1 person can keep up the warranty claims ( and failure research) (and repair)......


Amir, do you have any evidence of any reliability/longevity issue with Hypex products.

Yes or No?

If you dont then the discussion is closed is it not?

 

[March Audio]

These aren’t blind assumptions. If Bryston is acting how most manufacturers act, then they are purchasing insurance coverage to back their warranties. Every warranty claim against Bryston by a consumer results in Bryston going an insurance claim for the cost of the repair. That’s how it works.

Trust me, manufactures do not pay insurance for this.

 

[March Audio]

I see thousands of capacitors. .

how many capacitors in the world John? You are statistically totally insignificant.

 

[restorer-john]

He is not at all sincere. When he is a customer, he would never in a million years settle for what he is asking us to settle for. Did he build his amps out of cheap plastic or expensive machined aluminum? The latter, right? Why didn't he do an analysis and see if a plastic box would fit the purpose? Answer is that he wants his customers to think they are getting a high-end product even though the benefit to them may be zero. Yet he argues with us on better quality capacitors?

It's a hypocritical position, but he's so dug in and committed now, any form of acknowledgment, tacit agreement, letalone capitulation, is most unlikely.

 

[March Audio]

He says there is potential for it due to use of cheap capacitors. I say the same.


If their own decisions -- such as using lower quality parts or poorly measuring product -- causes this, then they are in charge of the situation. They can decide there is no impact and keep going (which is what they seem to be doing). Or improve the parts and potentially gain more business. This is no different than a car company deciding to live with reliability issues or improving them.

We have no responsibility here for censorship because it can hurt a company if consumers knew more. There is no bad intent here in any way, form or fashion given how I and and John have praised the product in this thread, and Hypex in general.

Oh his language has been far more emotive and comments more direct.

Aaaahh so its a perception issue rather than a real one?

You certainly do have a responsibility to provide accurate information.

To repeat I have not asked for censorship I have asked for data and evidence to support the assertion that Hypex have a reliability/longevity problem.

I have asked that if no evidence is forthcoming that ASR adopts the same attitude it has previously shown to ask the individual to provide something to back up the claims or desist.