Is America losing it?

[watchnerd]

I'm jealous, we don't have Micheladas over here... ( and no that's not some inappropriate nickname I made up for you, it's a beer cocktail)

Well, you can certainly make one.

Just get a can of tomato juice, some lime, salt, hot sauce, and one of the crappier euro-lagers (e.g. Cruz Campo) and you're there.

 

[watchnerd]

Yes, the USA is losing it, one job at a time. Yes there is still innovation, but it used to be that someones innovation resulted in more jobs and more factories here. Now innovation results in more jobs and factories elsewhere. Innovation (the inventor or innovator)still is rewarded, but without doing the physical manufacturing and consequent growth here, pretty much only those few innovators benefit. The country as a whole, not really.

This is only true if you're talking about factory jobs. The STEM industries, on the other hand, have more vacancies than they can fill.

 

[tomelex]

This is only true if you're talking about factory jobs. The STEM industries, on the other hand, have more vacancies than they can fill.

In the end its all about jobs, whatever kind. But think of this, if a country goes to war, and the few factories it has are eliminated, the war is over pretty quickly. If you don't make the tools that are used to make things, its not like you are going to all the sudden be able to make them. Its hopefully a remote possibility for any country, but while there is economic power, power from abundance of food, power from the existing military, if there is little manufacturing capability there is no resupply, no prolonged ability to fight back. But the war planners in the nuclear countries have a solution to that, and it is to go nuclear when they run out of their military gear, then that whole MAD thing comes into play. Lack of manufacturing may not be a good thing in more ways than one thinks.

 

[Palladium]

The are more fundamental issues in US than manufacturing and jobs like rampant anti-intellectualism, over-politicizing and political correctness.

 

[RayDunzl]

The are more fundamental issues

... just to name a few.

 

[watchnerd]

In the end its all about jobs, whatever kind. But think of this, if a country goes to war, and the few factories it has are eliminated, the war is over pretty quickly. If you don't make the tools that are used to make things, its not like you are going to all the sudden be able to make them. Its hopefully a remote possibility for any country, but while there is economic power, power from abundance of food, power from the existing military, if there is little manufacturing capability there is no resupply, no prolonged ability to fight back. But the war planners in the nuclear countries have a solution to that, and it is to go nuclear when they run out of their military gear, then that whole MAD thing comes into play. Lack of manufacturing may not be a good thing in more ways than one thinks.

Your thesis describes a conventional WWII-style war of attrition between super-powers. As you point out, that hasn't been true since the advent of nuclear weapons.

That's not 21st century warfare. Cyber-warfare, space/satellite warfare, supersonic kinetic projectiles, attacks on the electrical grid and internet, asymmetrical commandos-in-disguise (Russia in Ukraine), terror proxies, etc, are the tools of modern conflict.

 

[watchnerd]

In any case, this is all relatively moot, as the real threat, to jobs and security, is from AI.

 

[Thomas savage]

Well, you can certainly make one.

Just get a can of tomato juice, some lime, salt, hot sauce, and one of the crappier euro-lagers (e.g. Cruz Campo) and you're there.

Make my own, romance is dead.

 

[watchnerd]

Make my own, romance is dead.

Or go Canadian style and use Clamato.

 

[Soniclife]

Errr, the iPod ...

Re-designing others ideas does not meet my definition of innovation, however much you sell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_media_player.

 

[RayDunzl]

Re-designing others ideas does not meet my definition of innovation

Of course you can have your own definition, but Webster says;

"The sense of invention most likely to be confused with innovation is “a device, contrivance, or process originated after study and experiment,” usually something which has not previously been in existence.

Innovation, for its part, can refer to something new or to a change made to an existing product, idea, or field. One might say that the first telephone was an invention, the first cellular telephone either an invention or an innovation, and the first smartphone an innovation."

 

[Old Listener]

Re-designing others ideas does not meet my definition of innovation, however much you sell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_media_player.

Vikings landed in North America long before Columbus. However, the settling of North and South America by Europeans followed Columbus's voyages.

With the iPod, iTunes and the iTunes store, Apple made downloads viable and very attractive for mainstream consumers. They succeeded where previous portable player products had very little impact. That's successful innovation.

 

[Sal1950]

My point is this: Is the American audio industry losing to competitors in Europe and Asia where you still have clusters of engineering and production expertise that can design and build a product from A to Z? Can the decline of for example JBL Pro be seen through the lenses of the MIT study? Does the MIT report have relevance for the audio industry?

The whole post is right but wrong at the same time. To follow the industry you have to follow the money. The transference of wealth from the major nations of the first three quarters of the 20th century to what we see today has many reasons but the end result is what we need to consider. Could anyone in 1960s imagine Samsung being able to take over a major US corp like Harman?
We can't really address what was except to use history as our teacher.
Where ever you live, if you are interested in the future of your nation and children, you have to start looking to support domestic made products from domestic owned companies whenever the opportunity presents itself. The US auto industry should be a major example to anyone wondering what the final result of ignoring the trail of dollars will take you.

 

[Old Listener]

In nearly 50 years, my wife and I have bought one Ford Fiesta and it was made in the UK.

In those years, we bought 2 BMWs, 2 Hondas, 1 Nissan, 1 Lotus, 1 Subaru and 1 VW. There were no GM, Ford or Chrysler cars that fit our needs as well when we bought those cars.

If an American car meets our needs as well as foreign alternatives, we'll certainly consider it. We will not accept an inferior choice just to bolster an American company.

 

[Soniclife]

Of course you can have your own definition, but Webster says;

"The sense of invention most likely to be confused with innovation is “a device, contrivance, or process originated after study and experiment,” usually something which has not previously been in existence.

Innovation, for its part, can refer to something new or to a change made to an existing product, idea, or field. One might say that the first telephone was an invention, the first cellular telephone either an invention or an innovation, and the first smartphone an innovation."

That's exactly the point I was making, in this sphere the walkman is the mobile phone, and the mp3 player the smartphone, the mp3 player innovation was done pre iPod by others.

 

[Soniclife]

With the iPod, iTunes and the iTunes store, Apple made downloads viable and very attractive for mainstream consumers. They succeeded where previous portable player products had very little impact. That's successful innovation.

No that's successful sales and marketing, two areas apple have been really innovative in. I think they bought iTunes from someone else, and others had done music downloads, but forcing the music industry to licence lots of content at fair prices no one else had done.

 

[Old Listener]

No that's successful sales and marketing, two areas apple have been really innovative in. I think they bought iTunes from someone else, and others had done music downloads, but forcing the music industry to licence lots of content at fair prices no one else had done.

And those innovations were crucial in transforming the way people consume music.

This thread started with the assertion that the USA could no longer innovate. That's about whether we can produce new products and services that have a real effect (and produce jobs and prosperity.) Nitpicking about who invented something like the portable music player is irrelevant.

 

[Cosmik]

Where ever you live, if you are interested in the future of your nation and children, you have to start looking to support domestic made products from domestic owned companies whenever the opportunity presents itself.

I always find that a paradoxical argument, because it is subverting the free market - saying that the customer should ignore price and quality in favour of 'politics' - but not suggesting anything better than the free market.

If it is the government doing the persuasion (using the tax payer's dollars to put the message across), it is almost like protectionism - putting up a barrier against imports and ultimately putting up prices for the consumer.

Really, if a person believed that the free market is a fundamentally sound mechanism that results in optimal returns for consumers and producers, they wouldn't interfere with it in that way. Alternatively, they should do it properly and advocate going down the socialist route, or the communists' command economy.

 

[svart-hvitt]

And those innovations were crucial in transforming the way people consume music.

This thread started with the assertion that the USA could no longer innovate. That's about whether we can produce new products and services that have a real effect (and produce jobs and prosperity.) Nitpicking about who invented something like the portable music player is irrelevant.

Old Listener,

you wrote:

«This thread started with the assertion that the USA could no longer innovate»

Well, you are partly right.

The MIT article says that industrial innovation and strength is a complex issue where innovation, say at the university, needs to be supported by a network, ecosystem, of capabilities. Innovation cannot be separated by production.

See my (the MIT) point?

This is really gun powder from MIT because it flies in the face of the Ricardo theory of competitive advantage and ever higher degree of specialization (to the degree where you believe everyone in the nation can work as a designer).

The MIT article says a great deal about industrial strength of other countries like for example Germany and points to different choices taken, policies guiding different countries.

 

[Sal1950]

In nearly 50 years, my wife and I have bought one Ford Fiesta and it was made in the UK.

In those years, we bought 2 BMWs, 2 Hondas, 1 Nissan, 1 Lotus, 1 Subaru and 1 VW. There were no GM, Ford or Chrysler cars that fit our needs as well when we bought those cars.

If an American car meets our needs as well as foreign alternatives, we'll certainly consider it. We will not accept an inferior choice just to bolster an American company.

Exactly what were your needs in a car, suv or truck that GM, Ford, or Chrysler didnt' build? I find that one very difficult to believe.
Inferior as to quality is a mis-placed perception.