Is America losing it?

[Thomas savage]

Bit tired after reading all this, think I might have to take a knee

 

[svart-hvitt]

Bit tired after reading all this, think I might have to take a knee

Knee-jerk!

 

[Cosmik]

Protectionism always requires government action. OTOH, consumers are free to prefer American made products as they wish. You can criticize their choice but they will still make those choices. I oppose protectionism. It increases prices for everyone.

If the president says "Buy American!", is that government action/protectionism?

 

[watchnerd]

Klipsch...almost forgot them...

It makes me wonder why Klipsch don’t have a bigger footprint among enthusiasts and in studios. Or am I mistaken?

You are mistaken, and your definition of enthusiast is narrow. They're very big in cinema and events. Extremely popular with the home theater crowd.

Also:

http://www.klipsch.com/pro

 

[watchnerd]

Oh, look, a Klipsch DSP amplifier:

http://www.klipsch.com/pro/dsp-amplifiers

 

[Sal1950]

Protectionism always requires government action. OTOH, consumers are free to prefer American made products as they wish. You can criticize their choice but they will still make those choices. I oppose protectionism. It increases prices for everyone.

I agree with that 100% as long as the playing field is level. If we deal with nations that impose tariffs on our products imported into their county, then we should exercise the same regulations in reverse.
Otherwise people need to be able to make free choice, it's just a matter of perspective.
I was raised that you put your priorities on two things, first and foremost family, next is country.
I see it as my duty to protect their safety and prosperity for both in any way I can, now and into the future.
YMMV

 

[Sal1950]

If the president says "Buy American!", is that government action/protectionism?

I don't believe so, purposely not doing it I would see as being PC in a negative way.
His sworn duty is to preserve, protect and defend.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I don't believe so, not doing it I would see as being PC in a negative way.
His sworn duty is to preserve, protect and defend.

Are we talking about the current inhabitant of the White House? After all, many of his and his families' brands plus components for his construction products are manufactured overseas. Therefore, it would be the highest form of hypocracy, as in "do as I say, not what I do myself".

 

[svart-hvitt]

Protectionism always requires government action. OTOH, consumers are free to prefer American made products as they wish. You can criticize their choice but they will still make those choices. I oppose protectionism. It increases prices for everyone.

Dallasjustice,

you wrote: «Protectionism always requires government action.»

I didn’t intend this to be a thread on politics, but because your statement is pervasive among many people in modern times let me point out to you the lack of scientific support in the above statement.

Many people are skeptical about government action and more supportive of «free market». However, «free markets» don’t exist without government and will not come into being without government. Therefore, the strongest free market proponents are also strong supporters of government. Just think about this one more time and you’ll see the lack of scientific, empirical, support in your statement.

Logic must not be limited to the hard sciences only; logic has its natural place in the softer sciences as well

 

[Thomas savage]

I love America, the best service , the best beer , amazing selection of foods and cultures to immerse ones self in, easy to navigate.. vibrant and diverse, it's the best country Iv been to.

Going back for my third trip this year in Dec.

Now let's move away from politics or at least stay clear of party/ personally politics please. ( debating protectionism is fine, that's actually intresting)

 

[Sal1950]

Are we talking about the current inhabitant of the White House? After all, many of his and his families' brands plus components for his construction products are manufactured overseas. Therefore, it would be the highest form of hypocracy, as in "do as I say, not what I do myself".

What's the point?
In the past he lead his companies in ways that would be most prosperous for them and the shareholders.
Now his job is to lead the country in the direction that would be best for us.
That the two jobs have somewhat different objectives is just the facts, not his hypocrisy.
Just a top notch exec doing his thing.

 

[Sal1950]

the best beer

Now I believe your trying to blow smoke up our arse.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

If one understands what protectionism entails - laws in the form of tariffs, customs regulations barring certain goods and services, restrictions to capital flows, etc - then I think one would have to conclude that @dallasjustice is correct: protectionism requires government action.

In the USA, it is hard to conclude that the biggest proponents of free market economics are also the ones advocating more, rather than less, government action in the regulation of commerce, including imports. Some businesses and their political shills might seek government action to help prevent foreign competition while simultaneously advocating for "free markets". But, that is hypocracy.

No science is necessary to analyze the situation, not even economics.

 

[dallasjustice]

Recent news: American science achievements in AES.
http://www.mixonline.com/thewire/be...w-york-convention/430394#.WcqIZugt02A.twitter

If anyone is a member of AES, you can search their complete online paper database. You can see the relative contributions of audio scientists from all over the world. It's easy to see that American research and ingenuity isn't missing. The above is just another recent example.

 

[dallasjustice]

Economics is not a science. It is merely the study of human behavior. So you may dismount from that high horse and descend into the world of simple definitions.

Wikipedia's definition is as good as any other. "A free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and consumers, in which the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government, price-setting monopoly, or other authority."

I understand that many folks don't like free markets and prefer regulated markets, etc. I don't debate that. My only point is that only a free market will result in proper price discovery based on the desires of the consumer. Henry Hazlitt is one the best writers on this subject, IMO. He wrote one of the shortest, yet greatest economics treatise ever written, "Economics In One Lesson." Here is a short paper about how prices are determined in a free market.

https://fee.org/articles/how-should-prices-be-determined/

Dallasjustice,

you wrote: «Protectionism always requires government action.»

I didn’t intend this to be a thread on politics, but because your statement is pervasive among many people in modern times let me point out to you the lack of scientific support in the above statement.

Many people are skeptical about government action and more supportive of «free market». However, «free markets» don’t exist without government and will not come into being without government. Therefore, the strongest free market proponents are also strong supporters of government. Just think about this one more time and you’ll see the lack of scientific, empirical, support in your statement.

Logic must not be limited to the hard sciences only; logic has its natural place in the softer sciences as well

 

[svart-hvitt]

Economics is not a science. It is merely the study of human behavior. So you may dismount from that high horse and descend into the world of simple definitions.

Wikipedia's definition is as good as any other. "A free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and consumers, in which the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government, price-setting monopoly, or other authority."

I understand that many folks don't like free markets and prefer regulated markets, etc. I don't debate that. My only point is that only a free market will result in proper price discovery based on the desires of the consumer. Henry Hazlitt is one the best writers on this subject, IMO. He wrote one of the shortest, yet greatest economics treatise ever written, "Economics In One Lesson." Here is a short paper about how prices are determined in a free market.

https://fee.org/articles/how-should-prices-be-determined/

Dallas,

this is a science site and yet you dismiss the study of human behaviour. Where does that leave psychoacoustics and listening tests?

Science isn’t something which should be taken for granted or lightly; yet you quote Wikipedia for a definition into an area where you have little competence. Most articles on Wikipedia are incorrect and correct Wiki articles are usually made incorrect over time by its mass of users.

And when it comes to economics you quote a journalist, who become a member of the Mont Pelerin Society, a think tank supported by big business interest and thus hardly neutral or scientific.

My experience is that a person’s scientific mind is sometimes exposed when he ventures into an area on which he has little competence.

This thread is about what makes a nation strong and innovative in the industrial domain, including «audio industri». Let’s keep track of the main theme and try and use our curious scientific mind in discussing the matter.

 

[Cosmik]

Wikipedia's definition is as good as any other. "A free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and consumers, in which the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government, price-setting monopoly, or other authority."

Has such a system ever been tried? - because there is *always* interference from 'the authorities'. Any form of welfare, minimum wage, taxation, state-funded services, state-imposed standards, laws, etc. are all clear interventions by government in the forces of supply and demand. The role of state-sanctioned religion might also be considered in this.

But of course the emergence of 'authorities' could be a spontaneous demand from a society that operates on free market principles, demanding intervention from an official third party in order to facilitate business, so how does the above definition work then..?

As an aside, I once believed in the idea of free markets - having also read the book you mention - but it was probably when I began messing around with neural networks and 'artificial evolution' that I began to realise that even simple self-organising systems are liable to go off into dead ends and worse, and that outside influence is necessary to spot that and nudge the system back on track - or rip it up and start again. So I am extremely sceptical that:
(a) free market economics actually exists anywhere
(b) the free market could spontaneously create a functioning society

What we have is a hybrid, aided by vast inputs of free energy and materials, and it has temporarily given the lucky ones the most comfortable lives in history. At some point, it will probably still be necessary to rip it up and start again, though...

 

[dallasjustice]

Your thesis is that American manufacturers have lost something when it comes to audio. Your evidence is an unrelated journal paper from a journal which has nothing to do with audio or electronics. It's your thread. I've given evidence to the contrary and invited you to review the AES journal which supports my view that your thesis is merely a reflection of your personal beliefs. You've not even responded. Thanks for the guidance on what I'm allowed to say on this thread but I still haven't heard a response from you.

I take it this thread is just your personal screed against the U.S.

Dallas,

this is a science site and yet you dismiss the study of human behaviour. Where does that leave psychoacoustics and listening tests?

Science isn’t something which should be taken for granted or lightly; yet you quote Wikipedia for a definition into an area where you have little competence. Most articles on Wikipedia are incorrect and correct Wiki articles are usually made incorrect over time by its mass of users.

And when it comes to economics you quote a journalist, who become a member of the Mont Pelerin Society, a think tank supported by big business interest and thus hardly neutral or scientific.

My experience is that a person’s scientific mind is sometimes exposed when he ventures into an area on which he has little competence.

This thread is about what makes a nation strong and innovative in the industrial domain, including «audio industri». Let’s keep track of the main theme and try and use our curious scientific mind in discussing the matter.

 

[A.wayne]

The American audio industry is on a decline. Real innovation happens elsewhere.

If you are looking for integrated, innovative audio systems, you need to go to Europe. Just think about the integrated systems of B&O, Genelec, Kii Audio, Devialet etc.

The American audio industry is going the same way as the American auto industry. Think about the more rational, technologically advanced European models compared to big, bulky, old-fashioned American cars. The Europeans make Porsche 911s, while the Americans make Ford Mustangs.

One of the latest innovation of the American audio industry is JBL's M2. Unsurprisingly, it's big, noisy and old-school where its European counterparts are sleek, silent and innovative.

Rant over...

However: Is this just ranting or is there some truth there?

So let's get some science into this discussion.

Four years ago, MIT published a huge research effort into understanding the industrial landscape of the USA. Here's an excerpt from the report on Production in the Innovation Economy (PIE):

"The wave of disappearance of many small- and medium-sized suppliers creates worrisome and still relatively unknown degrees of dependence on foreign suppliers for U.S. military contractors. Across the entire industrial landscape there are now gaping holes and missing pieces. It’s not just that factories stand empty and crumbling; it’s that critical strengths and capabilities have disappeared that once served to bring new enterprises to life. Economic progress may be preceded by waves of creative destruction, as Joseph Schumpeter claimed. But we need to know whether the resources that remain are fertile enough to seed and sustain new growth".*

The report is recommended reading for everyone who tries to understand how industrial strength is built and is concerned about the decline of industry in America and certain other Western countries.

My point is this: Is the American audio industry losing to competitors in Europe and Asia where you still have clusters of engineering and production expertise that can design and build a product from A to Z? Can the decline of for example JBL Pro be seen through the lenses of the MIT study? Does the MIT report have relevance for the audio industry?

*Link to the report: http://web.mit.edu/pie/news/PIE_Preview.pdf
Link to the MIT PIE web page: http://web.mit.edu/pie/
Link to the book "Making in America": https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/making-america

European cars are great except when they are in the shop 300 out of the 365 days a yr ..

Ps: btw, Love the hi-tech wire harnesses with the disappearing die-electric ..

 

[A.wayne]

Are we talking about the current inhabitant of the White House? After all, many of his and his families' brands plus components for his construction products are manufactured overseas. Therefore, it would be the highest form of hypocracy, as in "do as I say, not what I do myself".

Only if one lacks logic , if its not manufactured here then what choice ...