Is there "special" sound, or isn't there?

[fas42]

Had a thought, following on the other recent threads kicked off ... how many people around here think that there is a such a thing - IOW, have an informal vote on it. To express it more precisely, if an audio system is working at an extremely high level of performance, however one wishes to define such a capability and however it was achieved, which includes any room treatments, etc - is there something subjectively different in what one may hear in this situation which makes it distinctly different as an experience, that marks it out as a desirable goal?

Obviously I vote, Yes ...

 

[RayDunzl]

I shoot for accuracy in the reproduction of the recorded signal. That goal may be "special". Others may prefer some euphonic goal, which, as defined below, would also be special. My goal is unlikely to be achieved, but I can keep approaching it.

Special:
1. of a distinct or particular kind or character
2. being a particular one
3. pertaining or peculiar to a particular person, thing, instance, etc.
4. having a specific or particular function, purpose, etc.
5. distinguished or different from what is ordinary or usual
6. extraordinary; exceptional, as in amount or degree
7. being such in an exceptional degree

If there's something special to the "sound" here, then, in my world, there is something "special" in the recording being reproduced.

I'm listening to Sex Mob - Dime Grind Palace. It is "of a distinct or particular kind or character".

 

[fas42]

Special:
1. of a distinct or particular kind or character
2. being a particular one
3. pertaining or peculiar to a particular person, thing, instance, etc.
4. having a specific or particular function, purpose, etc.
5. distinguished or different from what is ordinary or usual
6. extraordinary; exceptional, as in amount or degree
7. being such in an exceptional degree

IME, it's 1. and 5. "versions" of special. Unspecial means it sounds like an audio rig, special means the musical event is in complete ascendency; unspecial means that it is trivially easy to hear the drivers working, the machinery making the sound is obvious, special means it becomes impossible to be hear that fact.

 

[Cosmik]

I say no - in the sense I think you are meaning. If your system sounded "special" yesterday, but for no logical, measurable reason fails to today, the answer is likely to lie inside your head.

 

[Blumlein 88]

A surround setup I did recently elicited a comment that I think is high praise for hifi rigs. After some considerable time the guest said, " You know I didn't even notice the sound, yet now that I think about it, the sound was very, very good while drawing no notice of itself at all. "

 

[fas42]

I say no - in the sense I think you are meaning. If your system sounded "special" yesterday, but for no logical, measurable reason fails to today, the answer is likely to lie inside your head.

IME the reason is logical, always - but we may not have an easy way to measure it, nor may the logic be obvious, at the time. With the system where I just I described the speaker setup, it slipped out of "specialness" constantly - I didn't understand why, but I could always restore that quality, by "resetting" it: in exactly the same way as a computer is "fixed" when it gets itself in a mess - shut it down, let the power supplies drain, and switch it back on again. This worked, 100% of the time - it was completely 'logical' in its behaviour ...

Blumlein 88 nailed one of the characteristics: that the sound is 'just there', without drawing attention to itself - I had one hifi enthusiast visit, and he remarked at the end it took him an hour or so to "get" it; he was so busy doing the usual audiophile listening ritual and not hearing the usual markers loudly proclaimed - he was initially unimpressed - until he realised that the subjective impact was fully balanced, and the music was just "happening".

 

[fas42]

Talking about the "subjective differences", microstrip in the High End Show in Brussels thread on WBF just responded to 853guy's comments on "silence", the importance thereof: in a classical piece, where there is a momentary "pause", that one can "feel" that space, there is a quality there of leaning forward, waiting for the tension of the "nothing" to be resolved, and the satisfaction when the next phrase does commence.

A "boring", ordinary system just fails to do this; they need lots of continual sound happening, to keep one's interest engaged ...

 

[Cosmik]

IME the reason is logical, always - but we may not have an easy way to measure it, nor may the logic be obvious, at the time. With the system where I just I described the speaker setup, it slipped out of "specialness" constantly - I didn't understand why, but I could always restore that quality, by "resetting" it: in exactly the same way as a computer is "fixed" when it gets itself in a mess - shut it down, let the power supplies drain, and switch it back on again. This worked, 100% of the time - it was completely 'logical' in its behaviour ...

If it is not measurable (or at least not measured) and you can't think of a reason why 'it' might be happening, there is no evidence whatsoever that it is not entirely inside your head. It sounds like classic placebo effects - can you explain why what you are experiencing is not exactly the same as a self-administered placebo? Placebos are 100% repeatable if a person continues to believe in them.

 

[fas42]

Well, 30 odd years of placebo effect is pretty damn good - if only more areas of "real" life were as reliable as that! I only just came across ASA, in 2016, which finally supplied a cause and effect mechanism - it was another "Aha!!" moment. So, I now have a reason ...

In one sense it is a placebo, in the same way listening to live, unreinforced music is - we allow the acoustic information to take us to another place, emotionally, etc - as an exercise, we could arbitrarily decide that the live musicians were doing a poor job, were sounding awful - and in no time at all we would find the sound quite objectionable ... ultimately, our minds are always in control ...

 

[fas42]

An interesting new post at WBF has expressed what the transition from ordinary, to elevated sound may achieve, "System Test Music: First Piano, Then Large-Scale Orchestra...and Now Organ?", by LL21. Typical audio replay is incapable of expressing the complex interplay of tones and harmonics in "big" sound - "special" sound does this with ease, water off a duck's back type of thing. The final component is to be able to set the SPLs to any level desired, with zero audible degradation.

 

[fas42]

Kenrick in Japan, refurbishing and upgrading pro and ambitious older speakers, have plenty of videos which demonstrate aspects of "special" sound. Some examples obviously don't make the grade, have artifacts which scream at you - but the goodies show what can be done, a just posted example,

Note that the setup is as primitive as possible - a mess of a room, just dumped the speakers on some dollies, hooked up to the standard playback rig ... and yet ...

 

[amirm]

Note that the setup is as primitive as possible - a mess of a room, just dumped the speakers on some dollies, hooked up to the standard playback rig ... and yet ...

What's special about that sound?

 

[fas42]

Everyone listens with different ears - I can hear what it's doing right, the signature elements that are a giveaway to very intense sound being produced . An ordinary system playing the same music, at the same volume, and recorded in the same manner would show so many obvious artifacts indicating it was just a hifi setup, and that it was limited in what it could deliver.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Everyone listens with different ears - I can hear what it's doing right, the signature elements that are a giveaway to very intense sound being produced . An ordinary system playing the same music, at the same volume, and recorded in the same manner would show so many obvious artifacts indicating it was just a hifi setup, and that it was limited in what it could deliver.

How was it recorded? I wondered that when I listened to it.

 

[fas42]

One of the first videos that caught my ear many years ago here was this,

and this Manfrotto rig is what he always uses, I believe. If you watch through the video, at one point there is a very shiny reflection, in the speaker side, of him holding the recorder.

 

[Cosmik]

One of the first videos that caught my ear many years ago here was this,

and this Manfrotto rig is what he always uses, I believe. If you watch through the video, at one point there is a very shiny reflection, in the speaker side, of him holding the recorder.

Is the pronounced, unpleasant dynamic compression and 'pumping' because of the system, or the recorder's AGC?

 

[fas42]

There is variation in volume because he's moving around the room - that's all I hear. Note that the audio stream is only 126Kbps - it used to be higher for these videos, but YouTube have resampled all their older clips, markedly reducing the quality for most.

 

[Cosmik]

There is variation in volume because he's moving around the room - that's all I hear. Note that the audio stream is only 126Kbps - it used to be higher for these videos, but YouTube have resampled all their older clips, markedly reducing the quality for most.

Just goes to show how different our expectations of audio systems are! The clip contains heavy AGC artefacts. Listen to the cymbals being modulated by the bass and other sounds at 4'24" onwards.

Dynamic compression is one of my pet hates!

 

[fas42]

Yes, that appears to be AGC from the recorder, I have never heard similar behaviour of the replay system itself. Until recently all systems used to compress badly, including Krells and the like, in the sense that the transient attack was blunted, and the treble quality collapsed once past a certain volume level - a deterioration into PA quality. Even at the recent audio show only a few were capable of maintaining a constancy of quality.

I'm quite happy to ignore limitations of the recording technique if the clip still demonstrates essential qualities of the reproduction being done well - there are vast numbers of YouTube recordings of supposedly competent systems with much more severe artifacts screaming at one ...

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes, that appears to be AGC from the recorder, I have never heard similar behaviour of the replay system itself. Until recently all systems used to compress badly, including Krells and the like, in the sense that the transient attack was blunted, and the treble quality collapsed once past a certain volume level - a deterioration into PA quality. Even at the recent audio show only a few were capable of maintaining a constancy of quality.

I'm quite happy to ignore limitations of the recording technique if the clip still demonstrates essential qualities of the reproduction being done well - there are vast numbers of YouTube recordings of supposedly competent systems with much more severe artifacts screaming at one ...

I took it the most recent video posted was to answer my question about how it was recorded. The prior video had better sound (though no real bass). This one sounds clangy, and glary and has the obvious AGC artefacts. I hear nothing that makes me think that is a great or even good sounding system. I would put blame on the recording, and not the gear. I haven't been convinced you can tell very much other than in grossest terms listening to these youtube vids. I think the recent video has effected your opinion because of what you see and the bank of large M-L amps in the video connected to these huge speakers with horns.