Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

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I think people are just bored to do the procedure because it involves a lengthy process.

And the elephant in the room is that it is also extraordinary difficult to accept that almost all audio manufacturers produce higher end equipment that does not audibly perform better than their entry level equipment . It is pretty extraordinary because it includes all manufacturers . So do not act surprised

 

[DLS79]

so you suggest all dacs sound the same?..all chips sound the same?..that a dongle sounds the same as a desktop DAC etc?..come on

If they measure as audibly transparent they will sound the same.

 

[BDWoody]

so you suggest all dacs sound the same?..all chips sound the same?..that a dongle sounds the same as a desktop DAC etc?..come on

All you need to do is demonstrate your amazingness. I'll give you a week to put together a test you can dazzle us with, otherwise this doesn't seem to be going anywhere productive.

 

[Mr. Haelscheir]

so you suggest all dacs sound the same?..all chips sound the same?..that a dongle sounds the same as a desktop DAC etc?..come on

If two DACs have frequency response or linearity deviations and distortion well below audible thresholds, mind if the two like in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...o-different-digital-sources-dsd-2-8mhz.38019/ pass a null test insofar as the electrical signals out of both of them show differences well below audible, then in a blind listening test, they should sound identical. As is repeated over and over again, in sighted listening, human hearing is much too prone to influences unrelated to the actual sound, causing one to hear differences not actually present in the audio signal.

P.S. This thread feels like protecting the Canadian flag on r/place.

 

[DonR]

so you suggest all dacs sound the same?..all chips sound the same?..that a dongle sounds the same as a desktop DAC etc?..come on

All DACs that measure transparent (beyond audible thresholds which vary between individuals) will be indistinguishable in a blind test.

 

[oleg87]

so you suggest all dacs sound the same?..all chips sound the same?..that a dongle sounds the same as a desktop DAC etc?..come on

All DACs? No, some DACs do a very poor job of accurately reproducing the signal - particularly the technically perverse examples of "high-end" audiophile stuff like that ridiculous PS Audio transformer DAC, and NOS stuff.

 

[Miguelón]

All DACs that measure transparent (beyond audible thresholds which vary between individuals) will be indistinguishable in a blind test.

Which proportion of dacs have been tested on a proper way?

I say, how can we trust the manufacturer have not manipulated the DAC to have its sound signature?

In another post someone suggested that this kind of manipulation can be counteracted by DSP, but since I don’t use it I am curious to know at which point the transparency is under external control (external with respect to manufacturers I mean)

 

[DonR]

Which proportion of dacs have been tested on a proper way?

I say, how can we trust the manufacturer have not manipulated the DAC to have its sound signature?

In another post someone suggested that this kind of manipulation can be counteracted by DSP, but since I don’t use it I am curious to know at which point the transparency is under external control (external with respect to manufacturers I mean)

@amirm has compiled a list of DACs he has tested over the years. Most of those who have a SINAD in the blue region should be transparent to most individuals with the caveat being SINAD is not by itself a definitive measure of transparency but a good indicator. I don't think there is much manipulation going on but a blind test or null test will find these out quickly.

 

[Miguelón]

so you suggest all dacs sound the same?..all chips sound the same?..that a dongle sounds the same as a desktop DAC etc?..come on

I am more and more convinced even if I’m still sure that my varios dacs sound quite different.

The statement is “if the dac has the property of audible transparency”.

Dongles have a DAC section and headphones amplifier on the same piece, so many desktop dacs. I don’t know if the headphone amplifier is included on the statement, but I think not.

My two desktop dacs have only line out, and I perceive super different, so the actual conclusion is that is just my imagination or one (or both) of my dacs are not audible transparent.

 

[DLS79]

Which proportion of dacs have been tested on a proper way?

watch this,

then you can browse these.

ASR Measurements

 

[Mr. Haelscheir]

Which proportion of dacs have been tested on a proper way?

I say, how can we trust the manufacturer have not manipulated the DAC to have its sound signature?

In another post someone suggested that this kind of manipulation can be counteracted by DSP, but since I don’t use it I am curious to know at which point the transparency is under external control (external with respect to manufacturers I mean)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Reviews/ should give an idea of the broad coverage of work by Amir and some other contributors. https://www.l7audiolab.com/ also features a bunch of Audio Precision measurements, and likewise https://goldensound.audio/category/measurements/ though his views supposedly stray from ASRs. Each new review by Amir also shows a chart of where the product sits among a whole host of others at least for the albeit limited SINAD metric. These usually include measurements of the DAC and amp sections separately as well as combined.

I personally don't know how often it has been the case that the manufacturer has "worked so hard" to produce a DAC or amp with a "warm" signature or whatever that ended up measuring rather neutral, yet folks heard it as described anyways.

 

[Miguelón]

@amirm has compiled a list of DACs he has tested over the years. Most of those who have a SINAD in the blue region should be transparent to most individuals with the caveat being SINAD is not by itself a definitive measure of transparency but a good indicator. I don't think there is much manipulation going on but a blind test or null test will find these out quickly.

Thanks, I will see the list!

 

[oleg87]

Which proportion of dacs have been tested on a proper way?

I say, how can we trust the manufacturer have not manipulated the DAC to have its sound signature?

We measure it. But the straightforward, sensible, low-cost way to implement a chip DAC is to accurately reproduce the signal.

Most things audiophiles claim to "clearly" hear should show up in measurements. how do you sneak "more bass" past an audio analyzer? how do you manipulate soundstage without altering anything we know influences sound localization? how do you affect "macrodynamics" when the "macro" signal you capture on an oscilloscope looks essentially identical to its 'ideal' sinc reconstruction?

 

[Miguelón]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Reviews/ should give an idea of the broad coverage of work by Amir and some other contributors. https://www.l7audiolab.com/ also features a bunch of Audio Precision measurements, and likewise https://goldensound.audio/category/measurements/ though his views supposedly stray from ASRs. Each new review by Amir also shows a chart of where the product sits among a whole host of others at least for the albeit limited SINAD metric. These usually include measurements of the DAC and amp sections separately as well as combined.

I personally don't know how often it has been the case that the manufacturer has "worked so hard" to produce a DAC or amp with a "warm" signature or whatever that ended up measuring rather neutral, yet folks heard it as described anyways.

Between the pure dac and the line out it exist some kind of amplification? Or the volume knob is just an attenuator?

 

[Miguelón]

We measure it. But the straightforward, sensible, low-cost way to implement a chip DAC is to accurately reproduce the signal.

Most things audiophiles claim to "clearly" hear should show up in measurements. how do you sneak "more bass" past an audio analyzer? how do you manipulate soundstage without altering anything we know influences sound localization? how do you affect "macrodynamics" when the "macro" signal you capture on an oscilloscope looks essentially identical to its 'ideal' sinc reconstruction?

Humm, I’m convinced: it will be impossible.

 

[Mr. Haelscheir]

Between the pure dac and the line out it exist some kind of amplification? Or the volume knob is just an attenuator?

That would be implementation dependent. For example, the FiiO K9 Pro has a "DAC" mode that supposedly outputs just to the analog out stage, bypassing the digital volume attenuator implementation available in the "PRE" mode. Usually when a DAC or DAC/amp is driving the line outs, it should be either a bypass or just an attenuator.

Otherwise, in regard to those two cases you gave for why you hear differences, we have multiple times given you resources on how to conduct the test needed to discern which is the case. Indeed, at the minimum, use a multimeter to be absolutely sure that the differences you hear aren't merely differences in DAC output voltage.

And in regard to oleg87's comment, indeed, if the electrical or acoustic signals themselves are shown to be identical to a level well below human discernibility (e.g. - 90 dB), then it is most likely sighted bias that is creating these differences.

 

[DLS79]

Dongles have a DAC section and headphones amplifier on the same piece, so many desktop dacs. I don’t know if the headphone amplifier is included on the statement, but I think not.

Those that are particular want to see measurements of both if possible, some times that is possible some times it is not.

A combo unit could have an audibly transparent DAC, and a less than stellar amp, or vise versa, this is why some people are partial to stacks a.k.a. a stand alone DAC and Amp/headphone Amp.

 

[Miguelón]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Reviews/ should give an idea of the broad coverage of work by Amir and some other contributors. https://www.l7audiolab.com/ also features a bunch of Audio Precision measurements, and likewise https://goldensound.audio/category/measurements/ though his views supposedly stray from ASRs. Each new review by Amir also shows a chart of where the product sits among a whole host of others at least for the albeit limited SINAD metric. These usually include measurements of the DAC and amp sections separately as well as combined.

I personally don't know how often it has been the case that the manufacturer has "worked so hard" to produce a DAC or amp with a "warm" signature or whatever that ended up measuring rather neutral, yet folks heard it as described anyways.

That would be implementation dependent. For example, the FiiO K9 Pro has a "DAC" mode that supposedly outputs just to the analog out stage, bypassing the digital volume attenuator implementation available in the "PRE" mode. Usually when a DAC or DAC/amp is driving the line outs, it should be either a bypass or just an attenuator.

Otherwise, in regard to those two cases you gave for why you hear differences, we have multiple times given you resources on how to conduct the test needed to discern which is the case. Indeed, at the minimum, use a multimeter to be absolutely sure that the differences you hear aren't merely differences in DAC output voltage.

And in regard to oleg87's comment, indeed, if the electrical or acoustic signals themselves are shown to be identical to a level well below human discernibility (e.g. - 90 dB), then it is most likely sighted bias that is creating these differences.

I have no multimeter, but no matter I manipulate the volume or the input gain of my monitors I find something unpleasant even fatiguing in all of my IFI dacs (three).

Actually I use my audio interface as a dac, never fatigued, so perhaps I will buy a multimeter but probably I will sell my IFI devices and replace them by one of the measured list. Not only because the sound, but also want something with coaxial input to connect my tv

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

you've already had two people answer that for you.

That's why I didn't ask it again!

 

[DLS79]

so perhaps I will buy a multimeter

Even if you never test a piece of audio gear, a multimeter is a valuable tool to have in your home!