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Dipole vs Box speakers
- Thread starter Neuro
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I see. 1kHz is a bit too low for the ribbon tweeter in my opinion, but then anything above 2 kHz will be way too high for the bass/mid panel…
I ended up on 5 kHz on my 3.7’s. Mid panel crossed at 1.5 kHz, and bass panel hipassed at 550. All 24 dB/oct.
After a few days with the AMT dipoles, I moved the Omnis back in. I need to set-up a proper A/B to really compare instantaneously. That is going to take some rearranging to do it right. The initial impression was the Omnis created a bigger more immersive soundstage, but the dipoles were pretty good too.
So a pair of good dipole, omni speakers would be nice to have. Maybe even rig up with an AVR and buy a number of used KEF eggs and test how it sounds then. My guess is good with music with many instruments. Big band jazz for example, but worse, compared to two speakers, with music that has few instruments when pin point accuracy is of greater importance. Please note I am only guessing and that solely based on my subjective opinion of how I think I want it to sound.
I have also moved to a new apartment and so far do not have much furniture. Then placing a couple of omnis in my living room I don't think, so far, is the most optimal thing to do. But sometime in the future, absolutely.
Incidentally, I now have a pair of vintage 10 inch Tannoy coaxials. Sounds surprisingly good I must say. Now I can tick it off my list, test coaxials that is.
Speaking of AMTs. Check here, I heard these at a vintage DIY fair a few years ago. DIY AMT. That's probably the best thing I've ever heard:
More on that build in the thread below:
Hifi Vintage DIY fair with pictures
I visited this fair yesterday! DIY & Vintage meeting in Mölnlycke Here is a short report. When: 6 November 2021 Where: Country: Sweden City: Gothenburg I took pictures myself BUT most were so damn blurred so I borrow pictures from this thread, taken by other participants. Pictures taken from...
I’ll check out the DIY AMT build. The HEIL ESS AMT 1b I have seem pretty bright on the high end and suspect the in room response is not great, but that was without any measurement. It dawned on me that I should try them with the grill covers on and see if that tames the hot high end any.
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Really you need to EQ to at least similar response. You cannot do much about off axis, but direct sound you can get close. Otherwise everything is murky due to the FR differences. FR is the most obvious thing we hear.
Good point and I will do that. I need to figure out a scheme to EQ two sets of speakers to A/B from one signal chain. I was planning to level match using Roon digital volume control and just quickly adjust when switching between speakers. Not ideal because it will take a couple seconds. Roon has EQ capability, but think I’d need to have 2 seperate zones, which would mean 2 signal chains. I need to mull over a scheme.
I’m thinking this might work:
I’m thinking maybe it can be done using my AV receiver, using digital outs of 2 Roon endpoint devices to 2 seperate digital inputs on the AVR, then EQ and level match each zone in Roon, just switching between digital input source inputs on the AVR. That way the DAC and amp would be consistent and not a variable. This is getting complicated…
Speaking of AMTs. Check here, I heard these at a vintage DIY fair a few years ago. DIY AMT. That's probably the best thing I've ever heard:
More on that build in the thread below:
Hifi Vintage DIY fair with pictures
I visited this fair yesterday! DIY & Vintage meeting in Mölnlycke Here is a short report. When: 6 November 2021 Where: Country: Sweden City: Gothenburg I took pictures myself BUT most were so damn blurred so I borrow pictures from this thread, taken by other participants. Pictures taken from...
Checked out the video…too bad the build thread isn’t in English….
I definitely need to EQ these Heil ESS AMT 1b and see how they perform after taming the hot treble.
Among other things, this thread gave me a better understanding of dipole radiation patterns and placement requirements, making me realize they are not well suited where they were being used as side surrounds in my 7.4.1 ATMOS system, way too close to the side walls for a dipole.
Between this thread and the Omni thread, I’ve gained a lot of knowledge on speaker placement of all types. I mow know why the smaller Duevel Planet Omnis sound so bad in my kitchen and had no chance of sounding good there.. The Def Tech bipoles worked nicely, just as I was expecting from what I’ve learned here.
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Yes. There are no threads in bupoles. I have a pair of Msi7 and thr sound incredible compared to other speakers. I believe Floyd Toole was a proponent of this type of design. The company that made them..Mirage...used his research. II believe the use of frequency in using speakers to control room correction is probably a direct branch of this science. All I know is my 30 year old Mirage speakers that I got a a garage sale sound better thsn my 2k kefs.
There aren’t all that many current bipoles out there from what I found, just the Def Techs and some from Axiom from a quick search without digging much. The Def Techs I reported on over in the Omni thread ended up working better than any other dispersion type in my long and narrow kitchen as reported here in my previous post. They are more tolerant of close sidewall position, the only placement choice in my very long and narrow kitchen.
Blumlein 88 reported on his bipole experience in a much earlier post (#60) before my more recent comments in the thread:
Omnidirectional speakers
Omni's are intrinsically wrong, some half baked idea to replicate a live orchestra, good for parties though. Keith
audiosciencereview.com
When I get an A/B properly set-up, I plan to rotate my bipoles, dipoles, and unipoles in to directly compare to the Omnis, mainly for soundstage, but also in room response as well.
I just recently downloaded RoomCurve to my iOS devices (found it on the forum and seemed like a good quick check tool) and plan to do a quick measurement on the onmis when I figure out the program.
There aren’t all that many current bipoles out there from what I found, just the Def Techs and some from Axiom from a quick search without digging much. The Def Techs I reported on over in the Omni thread ended up working better than any other dispersion type in my long and narrow kitchen as reported here in my previous post. They are more tolerant of close sidewall position, the only placement choice in my very long and narrow kitchen.
Blumlein 88 reported on his bipole experience in a much earlier post (#60) before my more recent comments in the thread:
Omnidirectional speakers
Omni's are intrinsically wrong, some half baked idea to replicate a live orchestra, good for parties though. Keith
When I get an A/B properly set-up, I plan to rotate my bipoles, dipoles, and unipoles in to directly compare to the Omnis, mainly for soundstage, but also in room response as well.
I just recently downloaded RoomCurve to my iOS devices (found it on the forum and seemed like a good quick check tool) and plan to do a quick measurement on the onmis when I figure out the program.
I am enjoying your (sighted, uncontrolled, non-peer-reviewed, not even apples-to-apples) speaker-type comparisons and comments immensely.
I've been kicking around the idea of resurrecting my old controlled-pattern bipolar design from fifteen years ago, and/or doing something conceptually similar. My bipolar design was only discontinued because critical components became unobtainium, and suitable alternatives are finally available.
I'd love to try to do something on the lines of the old AR MGC-1, but using modern DSP and amplification. I found out that one of the other profs does woodworking, so I'm going to try to tempt him to help me out on this (building boxes is not my gift).
Well, there are certainly plenty of flaws in my “uncontrolled” methods, but it’s a starting point. If nothing else, it will give me a perspective of how the different radiation patterns create a soundstage and the “immersion” aspect compared to the Omnis in MY particular room acoustics. I’m still thinking this particular room is more “tolerant” of the Omni dispersion than many others. Even with no room response measurements or EQ correction, the Enterprises are sounding pretty darn good to the ear only. I’ll post some graphs soon of the in room response curve at different listening positions for the Omnis for anyone who might be interested.
After seeing how well even my AMT dipoles performed on the soundstage front, other dipole designs have certainly piqued my interest. Once my Soundlabs get here, I’ll have another dipole point of reference. I have a lot of testing and note taking to do once this initial VERY uncontrolled round of testing is done. This phase one is just the tip of the iceberg. In the meantime, I’m enjoying the Onmis a lot while planning and studying up for the journey. When the time comes, some testing and measuring protocol will be helpful along the way as many mistakes will no doubt be made.
I did not mention previously, but did recently look at some older “Omni-like” designs and was actually tempted to throw some into the “mix”. My main hesitation is A) purchasing older speakers that no longer have parts available if needed and risk of speakers not being in good working condition and B) what the heck am I going to do with all the “extra” speakers when this mad scientist project is finished?
I found 2 relatively local that were tempting:
Mirage Omni 260
DBX SF1A
If anyone watching this thread has owned these, your thoughts would be interesting.
This could get out of hand pretty fast…or has it already?
Ok—here is my first in room response curve sweep for the Enterprise Omnis. I used the mic in my iPhone for the test. I took the measurement from the centered listening position:
Distances:
Front wall: 6 feet
Side wall: 4.5 feet
Speaker separation: 6.5 feet
Speaker To listener: 6.5 feet
Height to mic: 43”
Drum roll please….
This seems pretty consistent with my “ears” test,
specifically the high end bump, noticing a little brightness in the upper treble, most noticeable on songs that have a lot of high volume level content in that frequency range. On most program material, it was not very noticeable, not impacting the overall tonal balance all that much.
So, is this response curve more or less ragged than you guys were expecting from a Omni? It should be interesting to see what the response looks like for the other speakers in the mix.
Anyone want a phase or group delay plot next?
Distances:
Front wall: 6 feet
Side wall: 4.5 feet
Speaker separation: 6.5 feet
Speaker To listener: 6.5 feet
Height to mic: 43”
Drum roll please….
This seems pretty consistent with my “ears” test,
specifically the high end bump, noticing a little brightness in the upper treble, most noticeable on songs that have a lot of high volume level content in that frequency range. On most program material, it was not very noticeable, not impacting the overall tonal balance all that much.
So, is this response curve more or less ragged than you guys were expecting from a Omni? It should be interesting to see what the response looks like for the other speakers in the mix.
Anyone want a phase or group delay plot next?
did more response sweeps from in the kitchen standing and living room very close to the right speaker seated. This is a very rough (and lousy) diagram of the measurement positions:
Note that my distance from front wall of 6’ in prior test was actually from the plane of a whole wall of tall gear and large TV—actual front wall was about 2’ behind that.
The off axis living room position was seated on a wide ledge surrounding my large fireplace jut-out, about 3.5’ to the right speaker. Response from there:
The kitchen test position was where I barely had a line of sight to the right speaker 11’ away, at standing height since one would be in that position there. Response:
The seated very near the right speaker was the smoothest response of all, better than the earlier “sweet spot” listening position.
Note that my distance from front wall of 6’ in prior test was actually from the plane of a whole wall of tall gear and large TV—actual front wall was about 2’ behind that.
The off axis living room position was seated on a wide ledge surrounding my large fireplace jut-out, about 3.5’ to the right speaker. Response from there:
The kitchen test position was where I barely had a line of sight to the right speaker 11’ away, at standing height since one would be in that position there. Response:
The seated very near the right speaker was the smoothest response of all, better than the earlier “sweet spot” listening position.
DanielT
Major Contributor
Heck, you should probably listen the same way, with the same type of speakers that were used for the sound mix in the recording studio.Then listening to the recorded music via a pair of omnis should be seen as coloring the music, creating a sound that the music creator did not intend, right? Even so, when threads like these pop up, I get really excited to try out some good omnis. It is typical:
The thread is about dipoles vs box but there is a lot of talk about omnis in it too.
The thread is about dipoles vs box but there is a lot of talk about omnis in it too.
The thread is about dipoles vs box but there is a lot of talk about omnis in it too.
Yeah, that’s my fault…sorry…
I ended up here when switching to the AMT dipoles—my “project” is Omni vs dipole vs box vs bipole.
I’ll get some dipole data up next to stay on topic.
DanielT
Major Contributor
It's just fun that omis is brought up.
It's just fun that omis is brought up.
I have the AMT dipoles back in for a room response measurement next. I’ll try at same position as Omnis measurement then closer to front wall at 1.5M distance.
I’ll get back on topic “dipole vs box speakers” soon. I plan to use my BMR monitors for my “box” speaker. Next phase is to instantaneous A/B the Omnis vs box, dipole, and bipole, mainly for soundstage comparison. I’ll be sure to do a dipole vs box and report in this thread.
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