After the hype of Chinese HiFi brands, what is the jury?

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

After my mother died, I brought the family's old 1948 Bush valve radio out for a friend who repairs and collects them. Apart from making the power lead safe, it worked perfectly as is!

That though is the thing about longevity - you have to wait to find out how long any particular item will last.

and we're talking about a market in which people spend thousands of dollars on items and then 6 months later decide to "upgrade" the item because there's still a few veils to be lifted.

 

[computer-audiophile]

The biggest repair problems are parts and schematic,

Another problem is the extreme miniaturisation of components. I have already repaired circuit boards with SMD components in the lab, but they are getting smaller and smaller. When I recently assembled another mini-PC Bearbone, I almost needed a magnifying glass and watchmaker's hands, so small is everything.
One wonders how it can be manufactured. For example, the thin coaxial antenna cables of the WLAN/Bluetooth module. And the corresponding HF plug connections - it's insane.
You can't get into the firmware anyway, without which some digital devices won't run.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I think it is fair to say, and I hope I don't get called any names for this, there are rather differing ideas about longevity/reliability within China, than would fly in US/EU/UK etc. The quality of products can be excellent, but if they aren't, then the government doesn't have (or enforce) regulations in the same way as these other places.

My assumption would be that Chinese companies (not OEM with heavy oversight from external brands) will take a bit of time to 'come up to speed' as to how reliable Westerners expect their products to be - even if the price and performance is excellent, the price is not the only concern and customers will expect good service life from their products.

Afaic (a "westerner" no less), the definition of "good service life" is variable and relates to the cost of the item in question.

 

[Digby]

Afaic, the definition of "good service life" is variable and relates to the cost of the item in question.

Hmmm, maybe...? I dunno, if there is little reason that a product can't be made to work for 5-10 or even 10-20 years, then should we accept only 2 years, especially when recycling is a big deal these days...

IIRC there were very open discussions between manufacturers in the 1950s as to what was the right service life for a product. Obviously, from a manufacturers point of view, if it runs forever they are losing sales, but if it doesn't run for long enough then....they are losing sales (through damage to reputation).

 

[restorer-john]

But chips usually live forever. It's mostly the capacitors that die. But I wonder too why my old radio alarm clock still does it's job after 30 years. There is no excuse modern electronics dies after just a couple of years. And it's not just the chinese stuff!

Chips (ICs) do not last forever. Electromigration is an issue and always has been. Faster devices and more current exacerbate that.

 

[restorer-john]

The oldest hard drive is now twelve years old and has worked without issue for the entire time I've owned it.

That HDD is a baby. I have perfectly functioning HDDs that are 30 years old or more. One here in a dedicated machine at my lab bench that is over 28 years old.

 

[Galliardist]

Lots of talk about longevity. As if any one of us is going to be using the same headphone amp or dac in ten years time. I've got 2 Topping dacs and a Topping amp as well as a Fiio dap and a couple of Fiio BT dongle amps. All of these items were extremely affordable and they've all worked fine. The dap developed screen issues a few months after I got it but it continued to work otherwise and was still useable and oddly enough the screen issues recently resolved themselves and now it's perfect again lol. But I know going in that these aren't likely going to be 10 year items. I choose to buy them based on their price and performance. Frankly, I'd rather spend $150 on a dac that performs superbly for 2 years and then just buy another one than spend $1000 on one that doesn't do it's job any better but that has a place I can mail it to for repair if it burns out 5 years down the road. I don't really have any confidence that spending more on something made by a "real 1960s-style audio company" is going to get me any added longevity anyway.

I've had a power supplies blow, and on one occasion my amp's power board split in two. I still keep buying big brand components though. At least most of my stuff has lasted more than a decade before dying the death spectacularly - not all though.
I intend to keep my current main system for a long time to come. The desktop side, that won't happen as you say.

 

[Galliardist]

That HDD is a baby. I have perfectly functioning HDDs that are 30 years old or more. One here in a dedicated machine at my lab bench that is over 28 years old.

Yes - but how many functioning ten year old drives do you have? Like almost everything else, the newer ones seem to have a somewhat shorter lifespan.

 

[restorer-john]

Yes - but how many functioning ten year old drives do you have? Like almost everything else, the newer ones seem to have a somewhat shorter lifespan.

Plenty.

Honestly, I've had two HDD failures in the last 10 years and both (I think) were attributable to SMPS failures. The computer PSU got so much ripple and instability that it crashed the drives. after investigation, new PSUs solved the issues. But not before losing some data and killing the drives.

I had a recent one, that I initially blamed the HDD, only to work out it was Win10 taking so long to shutdown the PC (after it had turned off) that I'd pullled the plug once too often, not seeing the PC power light was still on. After a clean repartition and format- it's still fine. I'm using it now.

Pity the data didn't survive... With hindsight, I could have saved it, if I'd known windows doesn't differentiate between the boot SSD drive and the HDD data drive failure and just lumps it all into an overall system failure... If your four main folders are pointed to another drive (other than the system drive) and for some reason, it can't get a valid read- it crashes badly. Pull the crashed drive out, boot up with no data drive and, bingo, Windows boots up perfectly fine- just doesn't know where anything much (data) is. Put a new drive in, create the folders, point the OS to them and all is good. Although it still remembers where something should be, but isn't, but that's not as bad as losing your entire system and every program is it?

Sure there's a few programs like LTSPICE and some other CAD/Imaging programs that can't handle a crashed and replaced data drive, but they are (free) and easy enough to rebuild/re-install.

Never again will I trust MS telling me what's wrong. I'll pull the drives and throw them into my SATA dock and do what I've always done- fix it myself.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Hmmm, maybe...? I dunno, if there is little reason that a product can't be made to work for 5-10 or even 10-20 years, then should we accept only 2 years, especially when recycling is a big deal these days...

IIRC there were very open discussions between manufacturers in the 1950s as to what was the right service life for a product. Obviously, from a manufacturers point of view, if it runs forever they are losing sales, but if it doesn't run for long enough then....they are losing sales (through damage to reputation).

well first of all, I don't know for a fact that the items I refer to (my Topping and Fiio stuff) won't last a decade. Maybe they will. I probably won't need them to though. But there's always a trade off right? If we're talking about paying 10 or 15 percent more in order to get an item that might last a little longer and that has some sort of potential for servicing down the line then sure, fair trade-off. But 500% more - and with no real assurance of that better lifespan? Also, I don't think there's all that many people (myself-included) who are going to be shipping stuff off for out of warranty repair no matter what the initial cost. I just can't be bothered. If I were to drop some larger amount on a dac and it died 5 years down the road I'd be highly-inclined to just look around for the current hotness rather than send the dead one at my cost back for repair.

But I also think the whole idea that these things are breaking down at some higher than should be expected rate is questionable at best. As I and a few others have noted, we'd need to know the actual sales/issues numbers relative to more expensive western brands to rreally make that case. Frankly, I'm surprised there isn't a whole lot more complaints about some of these popular items than there has been. It seems to me that if there actually was a lot of issues cropping up with Topping dacs for instance, the threads relating to them on forums would be nothing but complaints about them dying and what not - given the reality that people with complaints are generally far more likely to voice them.

 

[CleanSound]

I would have been good if the OP had treated the readership of ASR with a little more respect
A headline that doesn't make any sense and then a poll set up with options from a bad marketing survey, and after, a load of guff about how this isn't a knock Chinese products thread.

Alright, you gonna have to explain this some more.

How am I disrespectful? How is the tag line disrespectful?

What is it about the word "hype" you don't understand? Perhaps by using the word "hype" is accusatory and that Chinese brands are hype, but look at the damn options on the poll, the first one is specifically stating that Chinese brands are not hypes. Maybe it got lost in translation?

What is it about Chinese brands vs. Chinese OEM/ODM vs. (what you just added) Chinese illegal copy/knockoff/bootleg that is so confusing for you (or anyone else)?

For those who want to complicate the meaning of "Chinese Brands" appears to be doing it just do it it. Yes, I agree it can get complicated for multi-national companies and/or internal acquisitions, etc.

But are you guys kidding me?

Which one of these Chinese brands are in the grey area like Harman? Let's use Topping and SMSL as an example, what is so complicated about their origin? Those are Chinese brands through and through with zero complexity. I suspect those who are trying to make this complicated is because they want discredit the underlying premise of this thread?

Maybe I've unknowingly insulted some of you by questioning the quality/value of these Chinese brands. If I did insulted you, instead of me accusing you for being overly sensitive, like I would normally do, I wholeheartedly apologize as I realize people take pride in the equipment they own. I mean no insult.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Alright, you gonna have to explain this some more.

How am I disrespectful? How is the tag line disrespectful?

What is it about the word "hype" you don't understand? Perhaps by using the word "hype" is accusatory and that Chinese brands are hype, but look at the damn options on the poll, the first one is specifically stating that Chinese brands are not hypes. Maybe it got lost in translation?

What is it about Chinese brands vs. Chinese OEM/ODM vs. (what you just added) Chinese illegal copy/knockoff/bootleg that is so confusing for you (or anyone else)?

For those who want to complicate the meaning of "Chinese Brands" appears to be doing it just do it it. Yes, I agree it can get complicated for multi-national companies and/or internal acquisitions, etc.

But are you guys kidding me?

Which one of these Chinese brands are in the grey area like Harman? Let's use Topping and SMSL as an example, what is so complicated about their origin? Those are Chinese brands through and through with zero complexity. I suspect those who are trying to make this complicated is because they want discredit the underlying premise of this thread?

Maybe I've unknowingly insulted some of you by questioning the quality/value of these Chinese brands. If I did insulted you, instead of me accusing you for being overly sensitive, like I would normally do, I wholeheartedly apologize as I realize people take pride in the equipment they own. I mean no insult.

When you refer to "hype," what exactly do you mean? Are you saying that the reviews here at ASR that note the extremely good performance of some of these items constitute hype? It seems to me that hype is only hype if there's some reliable reason to think that something isn't living up to the expectations most users have of it. Do we have good evidence that that is the case with most of the items in question? That word has some significant negative conotations.

 

[Ron Texas]

What hype? Companies like Topping turn out gear that is attractively priced, reliable and measures well. What's not to like, unless you want a fancy CNC'ed aluminum box.

 

[WILL]

Chinese know how to make things cheap, but don’t know how to invent things.
And, yes iPhones are assembled in China by Foxconn(mother company Hon Hai Corp.).
Important cpu made by TSMC, but again the design is all Apple company.

 

[CleanSound]

When you refer to "hype," what exactly do you mean? Are you saying that the reviews here at ASR that note the extremely good performance of some of these items constitute hype? It seems to me that hype is only hype if there's some reliable reason to think that something isn't living up to the expectations most users have of it. Do we have good evidence that that is the case with most of the items in question?

Thank you for asking for clarification.

Hype as per Merriam-Webster dictionary: to promote or publicize extravagantly

While these Chinese brands themselves did not promote and publicize extravagantly, but their mere market entry alone hyped people up because of their superior audio measurement performance and price point.

If "the hype was real" that means, the initial excited carried through and they delivered. Hence option 1: "What do you mean 'after the hype?' The hype is real."

If someone/something is just hype, then that means, they initially got people excited and then they under delivered. Hence option 2: "My experience is that it's hype, I'm pretty much over it now." I should of had it as "My experience is that it's just hype, I'm pretty much over it now." My fault.

So my title "After the hype of Chinese HiFi brands, what is the jury?" means, after the initial excitement, what is your verdict?

 

[CleanSound]

Chinese know how to make things cheap, but don’t know how to invent things.
And, yes iPhones are assembled in China by Foxconn(mother company Hon Hai Corp.).
Important cpu made by TSMC, but again the design is all Apple company.

I disagree on this. How many non-Chinese brand can compete with audio measurement performance, especially when it comes to DACs?

EDIT: Their DAC engineering to achieve such amazing audio measurements are quite of an engineering feat.

 

[Purité Audio]

Chinese know how to make things cheap, but don’t know how to invent things.
And, yes iPhones are assembled in China by Foxconn(mother company Hon Hai Corp.).
Important cpu made by TSMC, but again the design is all Apple company.

They used to say that about Japan too, how ridiculous.
Keith

 

[Mart68]

What hype? Companies like Topping turn out gear that is attractively priced, reliable and measures well. What's not to like, unless you want a fancy CNC'ed aluminum box.

use of the word hype is what doesn't work for this poll I think.

Seems to me most members here are not into hype or hyping. Look at the reviews, it's more 'Let's measure this thing and then do a brutal, scorched-earth cost/benefit analysis of it over thirty-five pages.'

No-one here is buying Chinese DACs because they lift more veils.

 

[CleanSound]

What hype? Companies like Topping turn out gear that is attractively priced, reliable and measures well. What's not to like, unless you want a fancy CNC'ed aluminum box.

And that is why I have option 1 on the poll "What do you mean 'after the hype?' The hype is real."

But to be fair, others, including myself, are pointing out concerns such as reliability and local support. I personally also don't feel Chinese brands make their products to international market's tastes/needs compare to non-Chinese brands' product lineups.

 

[CleanSound]

use of the word hype is what doesn't work for this poll I think.

Seems to me most members here are not into hype or hyping. Look at the reviews, it's more 'Let's measure this thing and then do a brutal, scorched-earth cost/benefit analysis of it over thirty-five pages.'

No-one here is buying Chinese DACs because they lift more veils.

I disagree. See post #155 for clarification.