Stereophile's Jim Austin disagrees w Atkinson; says tubes have something that can't be measured

[pablolie]

Well, typically there's higher open loop gain. But still, it's not difficult to engineer tube circuits to give vastly lower levels of distortion than humans can detect by ear.

That I agree with completely... but you introduced the "humanly hearable" element into an argument that was previously about absolutes about tubes' "unquestionable virtues".

I never claimed in anyway I could reliably tell the difference between a perfectly designed tube or semi design, I leave it to others to claim there are absolute SQ virtues to either.

What is undoubtable from a measuring point of view (and this website provides ample evidence) is that these days state-of-art Class D amplification pummels anything driven by tubes and Class A semi designs. Never mind the ability to be power efficient or to power any loudspeaker load.

 

[Cbdb2]

This really isn't true. First, tubes are still with us. What's going to kill them is class D guitar amplifiers invading the guitar market- nothing to do with hifi. Yes, sometimes they are cheaper. But the output devices we use in our class D amp are more expensive than the power tubes we use....

Second, if you think transistors 'never have to be replaced' you're living in a fantasy world- gnomes jumping over mushrooms, that sort of thing.

Transistors and chips die due to corrosion (amongst other things). So they can have a pretty long life, but they do on occasion have to be replaced. Certain transistors are notorious for failure- there's a list of them over on audiokarma.
Those that spend any time working on vintage effects pedals, synthesizers and audio equipment know what I'm talking about. The scary bit about semiconductors is the list of obsolete devices is pretty daunting- the semiconductor industry is always making strides so older devices go n/l/a. That means it can get tricky to repair older solid state equipment. For the time being at least, tubes for older and newer equipment are pretty easy to find, except for the newer KT150, which seems to have caused Audio Research some problems lately since their stuff is designed for that tube.

Of course transistors fail but there still way more dependable then tubes. How many tubes do you find in military gear. As a tube amp manufacturer you obviously have a bias. Fixing old gear is your come back? Since theres 100 times as much old SS gear Ild imagine more parts are out of date. And I'm sure theres old tube gear thats hard to find parts for. My main statement is that SS gear is easier and cheaper to make at the same quality, I don't see how you can argue with that.

 

[Cbdb2]

Ralph is a very experienced designer (tube and now transistor). Let's disagree more professionally.

Dosnt make him always right.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Let’s remember that the transistor is now twice as old as the tube was when the transistor was invented. It has undergone a long evolution to arrive at where it is now.

Mocking one’s precursors is not a path to wisdom

 

[fpitas]

Let’s remember that the transistor is now twice as old as the tube was when the transistor was invented. It has undergone a long evolution to arrive at where it is now.

Mocking one’s precursors is not a path to wisdom

Yes, and today's transistors are immensely better than they were. Both are a mature technology. I suspect the transistors Ralph refers to are from the 60s and 70s. Some were pretty bad, especially the power devices.

 

[mhardy6647]

Not to mention the lack, into the 1960s, of reliable and affordable transistors for high frequency use. This resulted in some amusing products, such as the space charge tubes designed to run directly from low voltage (i.e., automobile) DC power supplies -- plates and all! Also, the early "solid state" FM tuners, with tubes in the front end (typically only listed in very fine print in the ad copy).

In the latter case, the tubes used were often RCA's last-gasp NuVistors. And you know... I am kind of surprised that no one's mentioned the amphibian* of the active electronic components family tree -- the NuVistor

I am sure all y'all know that there've been a few "modern" hifi products that use NuVistors, too!
_______________
* Or is it the Piltdown Man?

 

[fpitas]

Not to mention the lack, into the 1960s, of reliable and affordable transistors for high frequency use. This resulted in some amusing products, such as the space charge tubes designed to run directly from low voltage (i.e., automobile) DC power supplies -- plates and all! Also, the early "solid state" FM tuners, with tubes in the front end (typically only listed in very fine print in the ad copy).

In the latter case, the tubes used were often RCA's last-gasp NuVistors. And you know... I am kind of surprised that no one's mentioned the amphibian* of the active electronic components family tree -- the NuVistor

View attachment 286045

I am sure all y'all know that there've been a few "modern" hifi products that use NuVistors, too!
_______________
* Or is it the Piltdown Man?

Those were interesting. I'm sure TV set owners felt better because Nuvistors had a high resistance to nuclear radiation. EMP, too. You could sit watching comfortably as the bombs dropped all around you, thumbing your nose at fate.

 

[Sal1950]

Those were interesting. I'm sure TV set owners felt better because Nuvistors had a high resistance to nuclear radiation. EMP, too. You could sit watching comfortably as the bombs dropped all around you, thumbing your nose at fate.

It could be difficult to see the screen while hiding under my school desk with my head between my legs on Tuesday mornings. LOL

 

[fpitas]

It could be difficult to see the screen while hiding under my school desk with my head between my legs on Tuesday mornings. LOL

Install screens under every desk

 

[mhardy6647]

Oh, and I should probably also note that folks have (and perhaps even continue) to fiddle around with space-charge tubes -- perhaps most notably Pete Millett, who published a design (audioXpress Nov. 2022) for a low voltage hybrid preamp/headphone amp using space charge triodes and solid-state buffer outputs to give neophytes a safe (low voltage) way to 'taste tubes'. I've -- ahem -- built a couple of these, in full disclosure. I believe the popularity of the design depleted the massive reserves of some of these otherwise unwanted tubes.

Low-voltage Hybrid headphone amp

Space Charge and Other Low-Voltage Tubes

Tube projects don't always require lethal voltages! Some tubes were designed to run at 12V. Others were not but work well anyway at B+ down to four volts.

www.junkbox.com

 

[fpitas]

Oh, and I should probably also note that folks have (and perhaps even continue) to fiddle around with space-charge tubes -- perhaps most notably Pete Millett, who published a design (audioXpress Nov. 2022) for a low voltage hybrid preamp/headphone amp using space charge triodes and solid-state buffer outputs to give neophytes a safe (low voltage) way to 'taste tubes'. I've -- ahem -- built a couple of these, in full disclosure. I believe the popularity of the design depleted the massive reserves of some of these otherwise unwanted tubes.

Low-voltage Hybrid headphone amp

View attachment 286052

Space Charge and Other Low-Voltage Tubes

Tube projects don't always require lethal voltages! Some tubes were designed to run at 12V. Others were not but work well anyway at B+ down to four volts.

www.junkbox.com

Since one of my hats was HV supply designer for lead sulfide near IR sensors, I didn't avoid the dangerous voltages. Luckily only my thumb suffered from thoughtlessly checking how hot my power transistor was

 

[computer-audiophile]

As you can see now, there are some colleagues who have consciously experienced the history of electronics. I don't think anyone wants to take technology back to the pre-digital age. What I like about my tube amps is the sound, the look, and the awareness of the old means and circuitry that was used to produce that great sound. (Not to mention the fact that I built them myself). All this happens alongside everyday things that for me are also influenced by digital technology.

Anyway, I don't want to join the tirades about the Stereophile magazine authors. They deal with other emotional aspects of the audio world than SINAD. I used to enjoy reading such magazines. But in today's world, everything gets used up too fast. One burns oneself out. The media possibilities accelerate the impression that there is too much of everything.

 

[Sal1950]

Those were interesting. I'm sure TV set owners felt better because Nuvistors had a high resistance to nuclear radiation. EMP, too. You could sit watching comfortably as the bombs dropped all around you, thumbing your nose at fate.

Nuvistors, that brings back the memories.
I cherished my Pearce Simpson Guardian 23 CB radio back in the 1960s.
It's receivers front end used the SOTA nuvistor in the front end for low noise performance.

 

[fpitas]

Nuvistors, that brings back the memories.
I cherished my Pearce Simpson Guardian 23 CB radio back in the 1960s.
It's receivers front end used the SOTA nuvistor in the front end for low noise performance.

You had to cascode triodes back in those days to get decent RF noise figure. Tube guys felt a little wary using two tubes, or both parts of a dual triode. Costly extravagance!

 

[computer-audiophile]

Since one of my hats was HV supply designer for lead sulfide near IR sensors, I didn't avoid the dangerous voltages...

I, too, had to deal with high voltage on the job quite often. Very early on in the laboratory for C14 dating. Or in the maintenance and modification of X-ray equipment for crystal structure analysis. Or last but not least when I was involved in the development of a 30kV underground cable connector in the high voltage laboratory of ASEA Brown Boveri.

 

[Sal1950]

What I like about my tube amps is the sound, the look, and the awareness of the old means and circuitry that was used to produce that great sound. (Not to mention the fact that I built them myself).

The last tube amp I built myself was an illegal RF linear amp that used 4 6146 beam power output
tubes for a nice couple hundred watts boost to my Pearce Simpson's measly 5. LOL

And my tubes weren't frickin Made in China

 

[JSmith]

Have things changed much? A historical perspective...

JSmith

 

[fpitas]

Since we're tube geeking: https://www.frostburg.edu/personal/latta/ee/6146amp/6146b/6146b.html

 

[computer-audiophile]

And my tubes weren't frickin Made in China

Intelligently, the Chinese now produce only a limited range of audio tubes, and that's fine with me. Amateur radio was a topic in my youth, but I wasn't into it. I only built an FM transmitter once for fun, but it already had transistors.

 

[Galliardist]

Not to mention the lack, into the 1960s, of reliable and affordable transistors for high frequency use. This resulted in some amusing products, such as the space charge tubes designed to run directly from low voltage (i.e., automobile) DC power supplies -- plates and all! Also, the early "solid state" FM tuners, with tubes in the front end (typically only listed in very fine print in the ad copy).

In the latter case, the tubes used were often RCA's last-gasp NuVistors. And you know... I am kind of surprised that no one's mentioned the amphibian* of the active electronic components family tree -- the NuVistor

View attachment 286045

I am sure all y'all know that there've been a few "modern" hifi products that use NuVistors, too!
_______________
* Or is it the Piltdown Man?

Still are!

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