Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[beefkabob]

...China will steal whatever technical knowledge and IP they can use.

This is the way.

 

[j_j]

. I have no idea about the technicalities about piping hydrogen about a major city for furnaces but it sounds good on the surface.

https://www.imetllc.com/hydrogen-embrittlement-steel/ This is probably the major distribution issue, but coated pipes might help (internal coating, of course).

 

[blueone]

When/if the new USA located chip fabs are built and the additional processing facilities that go with them that should free up some fab resources in Asia. Thus stopping shortages.

I doubt the automotive chip shortage is going to improve anytime soon. Most automotive chips are currently designed for older fab processes, like 40nm or 65nm, or bigger. The chips are intended to be cheap; there's not a lot of financial incentive for the chip companies to invest, so the production base for these older technologies does not appear to be getting the investment boost the leading edge processes are. The leading edge processes are the ones that have the most impact on weapons, planes, and ships. Tesla might be the exception, but most traditional carmakers use a distributed collection of cheap little ASICs placed into various assemblies. Perhaps the EV revolution will cause the automakers to up their game, but that won't help the situation for the majority of their ICE vehicle production for a long time. I'm not hopeful. There's significant competition for these older processes that appeared over the past few years, and I think the automakers got caught unaware.

 

[NoxMorbis]

Who calls this cars zero emission?
Its a e-car and it would only have zero emission if the electricity would be produced with zero emission.

Zero emission is for me marketing blabla.

They refer to the power plant in the car (BEV), which is indeed, zero emissions. Until we can leave our bodies and exist without any other support, there will always be some sort of emissions.

 

[NoxMorbis]

The Chevy Bolt is what I would buy if I was in the market for a zero-emissions vehicle. Here is the USA price for a semi-loaded car. I consider a car to be a poor investment so I like the economy of this model
View attachment 164938

I was considering the same thing, except I don't trust US cars. However, what are our options? Toyota has basically opted out of EVs for strange and sophistical reasons, and their first EV is over 40K. Their current position on EVs blindsided me, but now we kow why the big T has never made an EV, until I think this year. They're way behind, and the new CEO sounds like he's talking about how he wants to car market to be, not how it is going.

I think the MSRP on anew 2023 Bolt is 26.5K. If you add in the 7500 Federal rebate, you get a brand new EV for $19, 200. IF. IF ONLY! You can't get one in Sacramento, CA for MSRP, which is why I refuse to go buy one (Dealer wants to add 30%). It use to be you never paid MSRP, even on budget cars, accepting a -200-300 off MSRP as fair. That and they have no stock! You have to order one first.

First off, don't buy any cars until after June. Here's why:

If I could actually DRIVE one, to make sure m 6' 3" frame fits, and get it for MSRP, I would buy one in June.

 

[j_j]

They refer to the power plant in the car (BEV), which is indeed, zero emissions. Until we can leave our bodies and exist without any other support, there will always be some sort of emissions.

Indeed, the third law of thermodynamics even suggests if we "leave our bodies behind" there must be some energy expenditure.

Gotta love physics.

However, the 'zero emissions' can refer to carbon emission, pollutant emission, etc. One thing for sure, EV's do not produce NOx.

 

[NoxMorbis]

True and then there is the recycling of said vehicles and I don't think that is sorted out yet so there are emissions for that.
I just don't see where all the electrical energy for them is coming from. The rate of carbon reduction is too fast for the energy supply that is required to be created.

Then you need to start doing your research. Of course the grid will adapt. It's what power companies do. CEOs of power companies are having wet dreams about all of the electrical demand they can profit from.

 

[NoxMorbis]

Indeed, the third law of thermodynamics even suggests if we "leave our bodies behind" there must be some energy expenditure.

Gotta love physics.

However, the 'zero emissions' can refer to carbon emission, pollutant emission, etc. One thing for sure, EV's do not produce NOx.

Yeah I forgot about that! Of course there would be some energy because we are some "thing" even when body-less.

 

[NoxMorbis]

I have simply never understood what I'm supposed to need a car for.

Come to California, and you'll suddenly realize why you are severly depressed riding public transportation, because it takes 2 hours to get home and 12 minutes to drive, and right after you throw up because the guy next to you hasn't bathed since 1992, and keeps asking you if you know where he can get some heroin; or one of my favorite rides, where a 'White Supremacists' sitting in the back of the bus kept yelling out at the top of his lungs, at the black bus driver, "RICK JAMES! RICK JAMES!" Then you'll understand why you not only want a car, but actually need one for sanity.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Come to California, and you'll suddenly realize why you are severly depressed riding public transportation, because it takes 2 hours to get home and 12 minutes to drive, and right after you throw up because the guy next to you hasn't bathed since 1992, and keeps asking you if you know where he can get some heroin; or one of my favorite rides, where a 'White Supremacists' sitting in the back of the bus kept yelling out at the top of his lungs, at the black bus driver, "RICK JAMES! RICK JAMES!" Then you'll understand why you not only want a car, but actually need one for sanity.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Making vehicles too impractical and expensive is the goal. Slowly and surreptitiously.

 

[Newman]

Making vehicles too impractical and expensive is the goal. Slowly and surreptitiously.

Yes, I am kind of waiting for the penny to drop that an urban EV can be a pod-like thing instead of a full-sized sedan. It can have a small emotor and modest battery with enough range for urban stuff, and enough tech for crash avoidance, all at a fraction of the price of current new icemobiles.

Cue much jeering and chortling from the bleachers in reply to the above vision. And that, dear reader, is the real issue. Cars are ego padding and gratification, not minimalist humble transport. So are motorbikes (I speak from the heart on that one). Half of us resent that our future EVs won't bellow and roar to announce our arrival.

So...it's not just the manufacturers. The buyers also want EVs to be like-for-like replacements of the cars, car-trucks, and motorcycles that we are so attached to. And on a like-for-like basis, such vehicles will cost more for a few years yet.

Overall, we don't want a new world with new ways. We want today's world but with its problems managed away - preferably out of sight with zero impact on our lifestyle behaviours and ego gratifications.

cheers

 

[NoxMorbis]

I think nuclear energy electricity generation is the way to go. Then put the nuclear waste deep underground in a deep geological repository where the water table is not present. That's what Canada is already doing.

Sounds great, until 24, 000 years after it's now in the water table.

 

[j_j]

Sounds great, until 24, 000 years after it's now in the water table.

So, not in the water table, but it's in the water table? What about reprocessing? There are full-on solutions to nuclear waste that leave only the 100 year halflife stuff wasted.

Nothing like 10 million year waste, that's not waste, that's fuel.

Since you seem to have an interest, what's released more radiation into the atmosphere since the start of electrical generation, nuclear plants or coal plants?

Warning, that is very much a question that is much more complex than it looks.

 

[beefkabob]

I doubt the automotive chip shortage is going to improve anytime soon. Most automotive chips are currently designed for older fab processes, like 40nm or 65nm, or bigger. The chips are intended to be cheap; there's not a lot of financial incentive for the chip companies to invest, so the production base for these older technologies does not appear to be getting the investment boost the leading edge processes are. The leading edge processes are the ones that have the most impact on weapons, planes, and ships. Tesla might be the exception, but most traditional carmakers use a distributed collection of cheap little ASICs placed into various assemblies. Perhaps the EV revolution will cause the automakers to up their game, but that won't help the situation for the majority of their ICE vehicle production for a long time. I'm not hopeful. There's significant competition for these older processes that appeared over the past few years, and I think the automakers got caught unaware.

Tesla, doing things the expensive and more bespoke way, had the engineers ready to deal with the chip shortages. Their boss walked in, said, "What can we design and buy, and what cannot we design and buy?" and then the company dropped features, redesigned parts, and got stuff done. It was impressive.

At the legacy companies, when the CEO came in and said to fix the issue, the engineers said, "Well, we need to go into three year design and test study, but accounting will have to approve the expenditures."

Just kidding. At the legacy companies, everybody just ignored the problem and hoped it would go away. These are the same executives who ignored the chip makers who said, for years, "Move on to newer processes."

I was considering the same thing, except I don't trust US cars. However, what are our options? Toyota has basically opted out of EVs for strange and sophistical reasons, and their first EV is over 40K. Their current position on EVs blindsided me, but now we kow why the big T has never made an EV, until I think this year. They're way behind, and the new CEO sounds like he's talking about how he wants to car market to be, not how it is going.

I think the MSRP on anew 2023 Bolt is 26.5K. If you add in the 7500 Federal rebate, you get a brand new EV for $19, 200. IF. IF ONLY! You can't get one in Sacramento, CA for MSRP, which is why I refuse to go buy one (Dealer wants to add 30%). It use to be you never paid MSRP, even on budget cars, accepting a -200-300 off MSRP as fair. That and they have no stock! You have to order one first.

First off, don't buy any cars until after June. Here's why:

If I could actually DRIVE one, to make sure m 6' 3" frame fits, and get it for MSRP, I would buy one in June.

I'm struggling to understand much of anything you've written.
You don't trust US cars? Are they liars?
Toyota does make an EV, the BZ4X, and it's a turd. They had an early deal with Tesla and produced a decent number of RAV4 EVs. Before that, they made their own RAV4 EV. Toyota was in early, but they then bet big on hybrids and hydrogen.
Don't buy cars until June? Is this like, "Don't wear white after Labor Day?" Sorry, I am not going to watch some random dude's YouTube video.
If you cannot afford the car or don't want to pay the price, don't buy one. It's not some grand statement, though. Plenty of used Bolts for you to go test drive if you really wanted to know how well you fit. Here's 43 near Sacramento.

 

[beefkabob]

So, not in the water table, but it's in the water table? What about reprocessing? There are full-on solutions to nuclear waste that leave only the 100 year halflife stuff wasted.

Nothing like 10 million year waste, that's not waste, that's fuel.

Since you seem to have an interest, what's released more radiation into the atmosphere since the start of electrical generation, nuclear plants or coal plants?

Warning, that is very much a question that is much more complex than it looks.

Trick question! Trick question! The answer is solar, of course.

 

[j_j]

Trick question! Trick question! The answer is solar, of course.

Aww, you gave me away, but in fact coal also carries quite some radon and thorium along with it. More than most people realize.

After all, you know why 10% of some natural gas is helium, yes? You know, helium, what happens when an alpha particle gets its electrons back, right?

 

[JktHifi]

They still use the combustion engine on 2024 model:

E-Class 2024

 

[beefkabob]

Aww, you gave me away, but in fact coal also carries quite some radon and thorium along with it. More than most people realize.

After all, you know why 10% of some natural gas is helium, yes? You know, helium, what happens when an alpha particle gets its electrons back, right?

It becomes the omega particle?

 

[Spocko]

I made a error I meant hydrogen. I'll correct that now... Thanksss for the heads up!

LOL I was going to say "WOW, helium as an energy is amazing!!"