Not trying to be arrogant here, but who listens to this?

[Multicore]

Personally I find your posts packed full of the misplaced "Classical Music Superiority Complex."
We've been down this road before and rather than waste my time typing you can take a few minutes
to read one of the best posts I've ever read on the subject.

A millennial's rant on classical music

I've been wanting for a long time to unload all my issues with classical music, but didn't really find a judgment-free platform to do it on. From my short time as a reader in this forum, I believe there are enough people here who are classical music enthusiasts that are capable of having a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Mostly the only point he missed is that with a Symphony Orchestra packed with 50 to 100 players, there's probably a good number of
them who's musicianship is marginal but hey, who's to know? They got their seat because they were screwing either the conductor
or some deep pockets in the orchestra's supporting clan.
True stories abound. LOL

Let the rav's begin.

I'm not going to read 33 pages of an old ASR topic to try and understand what you're talking about with 'misplaced "Classical Music Superiority Complex."' But I read Fluffy's opener which is articulate and, apart from a few minor quibbles, unimpeachable.

I'll leave Fluffy's personal history and aesthetic judgements aside and tackle only the elitism. Uh ... Duh! No right-minded non-partisan can really contest this because it is so obvious. I think it's worse than Fluffy describes when we consider the social and political purposes of symphony orchestras, halls and concerts etc. serve and have served through history, it's clear the cultural superiority is a reflection of social hierarchy. These things are objects of pride for priests/kings and their loyal subjects relative to each other. Today church, monarchy, and national dimensions are out of fashion and replaced by cities of culture, the homes of the European technocratic ruling class, competing with each other for vibrancy points with architecture, art, music, etc. It's all hideously antidemocratic. And this is even reflected in the bizarre nature of orchestra musicians, the only kind of musician who's art is not wanted or allowed, who should perform only what's on the page as the conductor says. Musician as technology. And there are great and ancient schools for producing these machines.

The situation is perverse and it's obvious to all involved. What, then, are we to make of the fact that many people, many of whom are perfectly realistic about these facts of the matter, myself included, still get a unique kick out of this kind of musical practice? Dismissing them as elitists with a superiority complex seems not very serious or logical to me. Other things must also be going on and I don't believe they are all social. Some, I believe, are genuinely aesthetic.

 

[computer-audiophile]

The situation is perverse and it's obvious to all involved. What, then, are we to make of the fact that many people, many of whom are perfectly realistic about these facts of the matter, myself included, still get a unique kick out of this kind of musical practice? Dismissing them as elitists with a superiority complex seems not very serious or logical to me. Other things must also be going on and I don't believe they are all social. Some, I believe, are genuinely aesthetic.

Good point, Tom, I am also aware of this aspects.

 

[Sal1950]

I love it all. There are almost no genres of music that I categorically dislike. All kinds of music have examples that are at least good if not great. "Ninety percent of everything is crap." So pay attention to the ten percent that's good.

Ah see, we all have our likes and dislikes. In the main, I fully agree with you.
The only "music" I categorically dislike are rap and hip-hop, the largest number of the former can hardly be described as music at all.
I have a small library of Classical, most of which was purchased for my personal "music appreciation" from a BBC CD Of The Month club
back in the late 80's, which I never came to "Appreciate". LOL
Only classical that gets a regular spin here is Emerson, Lake & Palmer - Pictures At An Exhibition though I much prefer Rick Wakeman as a keyboardist.

I'm not going to read 33 pages of an old ASR topic to try and understand what you're talking about with 'misplaced "Classical Music Superiority Complex."' But I read Fluffy's opener which is articulate and, apart from a few minor quibbles, unimpeachable.

Kool, as that was my intent, the link was actually to Fluffy's first post but ----. With any thread that long it ends up being mostly BS.

You made a great post here that I agree with 100%
It's the elitism in the genre that really pisses me off.

For me, it is a logical progression to a higher art form.

I would only state here that this is a misplaced statement that initially rattled my cage.
It is NOT a "higher art form", but is simply another art form which is only "appreciated" by a tiny percentage of the worlds population and growing smaller daily.

 

[Sal1950]

Good point, Tom, I am also aware of this aspects.

English please.

 

[Multicore]

It's the elitism in the genre that really pisses me off.

I think the elitism and the music are separable, even if this can be tricky and the partisans will sometimes resist. At least trying to separate them while forming an opinion of the music can sharpen the thinking.

The only "music" I categorically dislike are rap and hip-hop, the largest number of the former can hardly be described as music at all.

Noooooo. Don't say that. Watch Ghost Dog again, the Jim Jarmusch film with Forest Whitaker and come back and tell me that isn't a wonderful soundtrack. I'm going to put that on my list of great film soundtracks together with Naked Lunch, The Pawnbroker, Bedazzled (1967) and ... need to think about the 5th.

The only two genres I categorically reject are evangelical worship music (there's lots of great church music but not this) and Broadway show tunes. But my podcast partner pointed out the exception here. I love the classic rock operas like SF Sorrow, Tommy, and JCS. Lol.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Please forgive me for not being able to express myself very well in English. Linguistic subtleties are lost and I also do not understand everything. Especially not the English or American humor.

 

[computer-audiophile]

@Multicore

The first composer that came to mind for the movie music was Toru Takemitsu, whom I also admire. You probably know him.

I have not watched movies for decades as I do not enjoy them. Or only very few. On television, I only watch documentaries or cultural programs sometimes. I recently saw an interview with Stockhausen in which he said that he didn't read newspapers and didn't have a television.

 

[Sal1950]

The only two genres I categorically reject are evangelical worship music (there's lots of great church music but not this) and Broadway show tunes.

Ouch, don't you dare disrespect George Gershwn!

 

[Sal1950]

Ouch, don't you dare disrespect George Gershwin!

Damn, was that Gershwin or Cohan?
I can't keep them straight now?
I googled it, it was Cohan.
Two great songwriters for their times.
It's hard to be 72 LOL

 

[Daverz]

Ah see, we all have our likes and dislikes. In the main, I fully agree with you.
The only "music" I categorically dislike are rap and hip-hop, the largest number of the former can hardly be described as music at all.

Thanks for being honest about how narrowminded you are, I guess.

 

[Doodski]

The only "music" I categorically dislike are rap and hip-hop, the largest number of the former can hardly be described as music at all.

Sigh* I dislike most rap too but this stuff is good in my opinion. Maybe this is hip hop?

 

[Sal1950]

Thanks for being honest about how narrowminded you are, I guess.

Your very welcome.
But I'm sure your just as "narrowminded" as I.
You just don't have the BALLS to admit there are forms of music you don't like.

 

[Sal1950]

Sigh* I dislike most rap too but this stuff is good in my opinion. Maybe this is hip hop?

Sounds/looks like break-dancin to disco

 

[Multicore]

@Multicore

The first composer that came to mind for the movie music was Toru Takemitsu, whom I also admire. You probably know him.

I have not watched movies for decades as I do not enjoy them. Or only very few. On television, I only watch documentaries or cultural programs sometimes. I recently saw an interview with Stockhausen in which he said that he didn't read newspapers and didn't have a television.

Inland Empire, David Lynch's masterpiece has a great soundtrack. Lots of Penderecki. We did a podcast episode about it.

 

[Doodski]

Sounds/looks like break-dancin to disco

Whatever it is it sends the right message.

 

[Daverz]

Your very welcome.
But I'm sure your just as "narrowminded" as I.
You just don't have the BALLS to admit there are forms of music you don't like.

What you wrote is only a few posts up, but you've forgotten it already? This has nothing to do with the likes and dislikes that everyone has, but the intellectually bankrupt statement that "most" Rap/Hip Hop is not music. That's such a narrow conception of what music can be, that anything you might have to say on the subject can be ignored.

 

[Sal1950]

What you wrote is only a few posts up, but you've forgotten it already?

I forgotten nothing.
Real music has real musicians playing real musical instruments.
That's MHO on the genre and one which I'm fully entitled to.

Rap/Hip Hop has been the abandonment of melody for rhythm, mostly created in some artificial way.
Spitting into your hands or microphone is not music, nor does it even come close to making you a musician. LOL

Speaking of "intellectually bankrupt statements"
You seem to have forgotten your name calling at me for simply stating my feelings on the genre.
I would think you might do better,
but maybe not? A shame.

 

[Axo1989]

Your very welcome.
But I'm sure your just as "narrowminded" as I.
You just don't have the BALLS to admit there are forms of music you don't like.

Haha, anyone would be grumpy if I they had balls stuck in the caps lock key.

Rap/Hip Hop has been the abandonment of melody for rhythm, mostly created in some artificial way.
Spitting into your hands or microphone is not music, nor does it even come close to making you a musician. LOL

Some great free range, ethically sourced, kosher, hypoallergenic, 100% organic real hip-hop for ya'll:

*apparently this was filmed in Kiev at the “Ukrainian Dom” now an exhibition space, but previously the Lenin Museum.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Inland Empire, David Lynch's masterpiece has a great soundtrack. Lots of Penderecki. We did a podcast episode about it.

Hi Tom

Let's see if we can get peacefully back to the topic of the thread. Some people don't stick to it. It seems to me that they even want to make this "elitist" art form disappear. Or the discussion about it.

Whatever! I also find Penderecki exciting. I have some of his music in my library.

Funny enough: While rummaging through my record collection, I came across a Stockhausen record with the piece "Music in the Belly" for Percussion de Strasbourg, whose live performance I wrote about above. I didn't know I had it. I'll put the record on my turntable later.

Tom, when I have time, I'll check out your podcast again.

 

[Multicore]

Real music has real musicians playing real musical instruments.

Not really. I'd say that even DSOTM, much in ASR news at the moment, is a counter example, music made in a supremely technological way. And, on the other side is the orchestra--real musicians playing real instruments in a perfectly technological way that may or may not have anything to do with real music. And plenty of hip hop musicians are real and do play real instruments.

This argument in these terms doesn't add up. I guess it is a substitute for some other complaint.