Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[MediumRare]

I agree and I asked the question recently of, "Why the huge HP and torque figures for EVs when the intention of EVs is to improve the economy and practicality?" The ratings are huge.

The intention of a Prius was economy and practicality, which led to a boring car with narrow interest and sanctimonious owners. The intention of EVs is to make the best car (including looks) and that is why they will finally succeed in the mass market. The h8trs are still raw about the Prius owners.

 

[MediumRare]

We all know it's not always about speed unless you have some cash on the line.
It's more about the KOOL factor and unless your a total nerd, the EV's score a ZERO in that department. LOL

I beg to differ. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37484399/porsche-mission-r-electric-future-racing/

 

[MediumRare]

Sorry if this has bee mentioned before - I haven't read the entire thread.

What's to stop car batteries being re-purposed as home batteries once their efficiency decreases? Efficiency to weight ratio is obviously very important for mobile batteries but not so much for static ones.

You are right, it is a major intended destination for the wave of "spent" EV batteries that have lost 20% of their capacity - will also be used for grid storage. They will also retain about 25%-50% of their value (depending on the current cost of new batteries at that time, of course), better than today's used ICE cars after 10 years, in fact.

 

[MediumRare]

Perhaps fires in the home? The cars seem to do a good job of just inadvertently catching fire.

That's not true, as was previously posted. Come on EJ3, I know you are a smart man.

"A recent study conducted by AutoInsuranceEZ using data from the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) showed that electric cars in the US caught fire at a rate of 25.1 per 100,000 sales compared to 1,530 for ICE vehicles"

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

You are right, it is a major intended destination for the wave of "spent" EV batteries that have lost 20% of their capacity - will also be used for grid storage. They will also retain about 25%-50% of their value (depending on the current cost of new batteries at that time, of course), better than today's used ICE cars after 10 years, in fact.

And after that what will happen?
How do you know they will retain 25% to 50% of their value?
Or is that an industry projection?

 

[MediumRare]

You cannot recycle all of the content. When an EV battery has had its life who will pay for its disposal? Please don’t say it will have a residual valid to cover the cost. An old EV will have no resale value once disposal costs are taken into account.
On another matter EV sales in Norway were at 80% of all car sales last year. All subsidies are to stop and a vehicle tax based on its weight is being introduced.

SOLUTION
Redwood is transforming the battery supply chain by offering large-scale sources of domestic anode and cathode materials produced from an increasing number of recycled batteries that directly go back to U.S. cell manufacturers. https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/

Because there are so few end-of-life EV batteries available, they are scaling up to rework waste from OEMs and then will take on the post-production material later.

 

[MediumRare]

How much would it cost to reclaim them?
Many electrical contacts are made from silver, yet are generally not recycled. The cost of recycling them is more than they are worth.
Doodski at least was realistic about recycling EV batteries. If there were massive profits to be made from their recycling they would spring up all over the World. Yet where are they?

I suspect you do not work in this industry, otherwise you would know about the billions of dollars being invested in taking advantage of this opportunity. There are many players working directly with the battery component manufacturers and global VCs. The list is long. https://www.alliedmarketresearch.com/electric-vehicle-battery-recycling-market

A good friend of mine (we worked together in the global automotive technology industry) is on the board of directors for Li-Cycle. You can learn a lot about the battery recycling industry here: https://li-cycle.com/newsroom/

 

[MediumRare]

And after that what will happen?
How do you know they will retain 25% to 50% of their value?
Or is that an industry projection?

After that they will be recycled for their materials, which currently equal 63% of the original cost. That provides a floor for the value (less handling cost) of a fully retired battery. If we believe the value of the inputs will go up with inflation, so will the value of the spent batteries as well. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/breaking-down-the-cost-of-an-ev-battery-cell/

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

SOLUTION
Redwood is transforming the battery supply chain by offering large-scale sources of domestic anode and cathode materials produced from an increasing number of recycled batteries that directly go back to U.S. cell manufacturers. https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/

Because there are so few end-of-life EV batteries available, they are scaling up to rework waste from OEMs and then will take on the post-production material later.

If you read my post, who’s paying for this recycling. Obviously at the moment no one as there aren’t enough used EV batteries to recycle.
The Redwood quote is business virtue signalling. I gave you a quote directly from Mr. Redwood J B Straubell.
What is meant by ‘Will take on the post production material later.’ Or to put it another way once the rare materials have been removed, they haven’t a clue what they will do with the rest.

 

[MediumRare]

If you read my post, who’s paying for this recycling. Obviously at the moment no one as there aren’t enough used EV batteries to recycle.
The Redwood quote is business virtue signalling. I gave you a quote directly from Mr. Redwood J B Straubell.
What is meant by ‘Will take on the post production material later.’ Or to put it another way once the rare materials have been removed, they haven’t a clue what they will do with the rest.

With respect, you're just being contrary now.

He didn't say nothing will happen until EVs retire, he said they are working with the available material as that source scales up, as my post indicated.

You seem to argue that there is this huge problem (not yet a problem, but yes, an opportunity) that no one is aware of but you (not correct) and then when we show you people are working on it and how the materials are entering the supply chain you say it's too early (it isn't) and they have no value or destination (they do).

So that's just being contrary.

 

[pseudoid]

If we could only be allowed to categorize humans in containers w/o getting grief from those inhabitants:

Back when Prius was a good status-symbol projection; their drivers had a tendency to have lead-foot -feet.
At least, down here SoCal or they were all just busy-bees.
Nowadays, EV drivers are more passive-aggressives.
They seem to lollygag on the roads until they realize someone is passing them... Then, it becomes a race to them... Maybe they are busy-bees, either texting or worried about range... but they are erratic on the roadways...imho.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Li-Cycle: Lithium Battery Recycling Efficiency and Recovery Rates

Li-Cycle unique recycling process takes spent batteries and waste from the battery production process back to elements and compounds that can be reused in the battery production process.

li-cycle.com

One highlight quote:
Li-Cycle’s commercially proven, safe, sustainable, and scalable Hub and Spoke Technologies™ allow us to recover up to 95% of key materials in lithium-ion batteries, including lithium, nickel, and cobalt.

They go on to say current North American capacity is 30,000 tons of lithium battery materials annually and that will be expanding.

 

[j_j]

Even if we ignore the 600pound [disposal] gorilla in the conversation; I haven't seen much ethical/environmental/political/financial concerns when it comes to your "CAN BE RECYCLED" argument about mining these "LIMITED resources".
All of a sudden coal-mining - at least, in the US - seem not so terrible in comparison, after all. [imho]

Um, so you're opposed to recycling? Or you deny that recycling works? Or that mining small quantities of precious elements does not create the same disruption as cutting off the tops of entire mountains, draglinging the coal, dumping sulfur in all of the streams, and then dumping the overburden back on top, willy-nilly in unstable piles?

What in heavens name were you trying to say anyhow?

 

[j_j]

Neither addresses the substantive issues raised in our opposing posts.
There is a firm in the South of England will collect and dispose Lithium batteries at a cost.
The former Chief Technical Officer of Tesla J.B. Straubel of Redwood Industries refers to EV battery recycling as an industry of the future, investing in it at the moment as not worthwhile.
Looks like another cost the taxpayers will have to pay for in the future.

There's not enough batteries to recycle right now. That should be a hint to you right there that battery disposal is not a big issue, right? Well, it SHOULD be a great big hint.

 

[blueone]

Li-Cycle: Lithium Battery Recycling Efficiency and Recovery Rates

Li-Cycle unique recycling process takes spent batteries and waste from the battery production process back to elements and compounds that can be reused in the battery production process.

li-cycle.com

One highlight quote:
Li-Cycle’s commercially proven, safe, sustainable, and scalable Hub and Spoke Technologies™ allow us to recover up to 95% of key materials in lithium-ion batteries, including lithium, nickel, and cobalt.

They go on to say current North American capacity is 30,000 tons of lithium battery materials annually and that will be expanding.

View attachment 254675

I'm sort of joking, but you would think a new recycling facility would put solar panels on that enormous roof.

 

[j_j]

Neither addresses the substantive issues raised in our opposing posts.

Physics and availablity of elements is basic physics when you get down to it. Nobody beats physics. Recycling will happen the minute there's enough waste to actually do it. It's already happening, you've seen the evidence in this thread, and you just keep denying over and over.

Funny somebody mentioned sealioning a while ago.

 

[j_j]

I'm sort of joking, but you would think a new recycling facility would put solar panels on that enormous roof.

Yes, actually, because electrolysis is a key part of the process.

 

[j_j]

That's not true, as was previously posted. Come on EJ3, I know you are a smart man.

"A recent study conducted by AutoInsuranceEZ using data from the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) showed that electric cars in the US caught fire at a rate of 25.1 per 100,000 sales compared to 1,530 for ICE vehicles"

Maybe we should just set up a process to repost this testable, verifiable fact every few days? It keeps being completely ignored.

 

[j_j]

I recall the snafu in a similar toxic issue few decades ago, when - wisely - we were moving away from CRTs to LCDs.
California - being one of the most environmentally-concerned "model" state - devised a system to recycle these CRTs that were being discarded to the curbside.
About a decade later, the contractors in charge of these lucrative awards, either went belly-up and/or just simply abandoned football-field size warehouses full of CRTs stacked up to the rafters.
I think they are still kicking that superfund-site bucket down the road...

Where are these sites, and what do you think is the value in "more lead" anyhow? It's good they are sequestered, if in fact that's the situation.

 

[j_j]

If you read my post, who’s paying for this recycling. Obviously at the moment no one as there aren’t enough used EV batteries to recycle.

So, first it can't be recycled, then you can't recycle all of it, now who pays for it? Perhaps you should look into aluminium recycling, steel recycling, glass recycling, cellulose fibre recycling?

But now you've gone from "can't be done", to "there's lots left over" to cost. Almost like any port in storm, eh?

BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE CLEVELAND GUARDIANS?