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Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

aslan7

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But if there is any one thing that fuels the LP, it is that the appreciation of the music becomes a conscious act. When the music can be streamed, it becomes a commodity and the listener tends to be less present to the event. When you are playing an LP, you tend to be more focused on the music since it takes intention (rather than automation) to make it happen.
Amen. I think a lot of "fact"and "science" oriented audiophiles like the sound and equipment more than the music and aren't open to the holistic aspect operative here (not that I am in any way hostile to facts and science).
 

MakeMineVinyl

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What's the lowest possible self-noise of your cartridge?
Its an Ortofon M2 Black LVB, and the phono preamp is a Pro-Ject Phono Box RS2 in balanced mode so you tell me. If you're trying to pick a fight that "what I hear cannot possibly be so because.....reasons", please don't bother. I'm engineer enough to understand noise floors, and when I cannot hear added noise upon needle drop, then there's no noise upon needle drop. Are all my records this quiet? Of course not. Are the numerous lacquers I have of projects I've done in the past mostly this quiet? Yes they are.
 

SIY

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This statement is false. Mostly owing to the word 'far' preceding the word 'superior'.

Vinyl has wider bandwidth than digital; since 1958 the Westerex cutter head had bandwidth in excess of 40KHz. My Westerex system was bandwidth limited at 42KHz mostly to prevent ultrasonics damaging the cutter. Cartridges have had +40KHz playback since the 1970s.

Since mics don't have that sort of bandwidth, its mostly noise and mic preamplifier distortion up there. But in systems running insufficient feedback (and there's a lot of that going on in audio...), bandwidth is often helpful to minimize phase shift.

FWIW most cutter systems have a profound amount of feedback, usually about 30dB (at all frequencies) around the cutter head and amplifier system. They are quite low distortion; the distortion comes in during playback.

Noise is one of the arguments for digital, but most people making this argument are not aware how quiet vinyl can be. If you have the cutter head set up correctly, the groove it can cut is so quiet that no matter the electronics used to play it back, they are the noise floor. I am saying that a silent groove in a lacquer can easily rival the noise floor of Redbook. The noise comes in during the pressing process, but QRP (a pressing house, a division of Acoustic Sounds in Salinas, KS) has done extensive work damping their pressing machines with impressive results. Literally projects we've done through them had a noise floor so low you questioned whether the stylus was in the groove until the music erupted from the speakers. I can't say they do this all the time, but they can do it.

Another argument leveled against vinyl is ticks and pops. I am aa audio designer by trade; serendipitously about 35 years ago I discovered that the high frequency overload margin in phono preamps (in particular, the input of the phono section) could cause ticks and pops sounding for all the world as if they were on the surface of the LP. This can happen if the designer of the phono section did not take into account the fact that the cartridge has inductance and the tonearm cable has capacitance. Anyone heeled in radio art knows what that means: there is an electrical resonance present at the input of the phono section and it can be driven into excitation. Depending on the cartridge the resonance can be a 20 to 30dB peak; easily enough to overload the input of the phono section. If the phono section is designed with this understanding (and so has sufficient HF overload margin) then you experience far less ticks and pops (IOW this is a common problem!); I'm very used to playing entire LP sides without any ticks or pops, even older LPs I've bought used.

But if there is any one thing that fuels the LP, it is that the appreciation of the music becomes a conscious act. When the music can be streamed, it becomes a commodity and the listener tends to be less present to the event. When you are playing an LP, you tend to be more focused on the music since it takes intention (rather than automation) to make it happen. CDs share this property, but of course they are on the way out...
No matter how quiet the vinyl surface, the cartridge will have about a 70 dB limit because of Johnson noise.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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No matter how quiet the vinyl surface, the cartridge will have about a 70 dB limit because of Johnson noise.
That's still low enough to allow no perceived noise increase when switching from a digital input to an analog phono one in a real room, and given realistic volume control levels. Of course noise can be provoked even from a digital input with enough gain boost, but that's not real world and I don't listen like that. Do you listen like that? ;)
 

krabapple

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I'm afraid he's mostly correct.


I'm afraid someone with the screen name 'MakeMineVinyl' would say that.

A lacquer can indeed rival digital more closely than many people realize. Direct to disc recordings can have noise floors as low as digital. I just purchased and listened to a 45RPM Yarlung LP of the Sibelius Trio, and the grooves are indeed almost dead silent, and I think I might have heard only one minor tick toward the end of the disc.


'Almost dead silent' and 'one minor tic' does not rival digital. (And will it remain almost dead silent and mono-ticc'ed over years of play?)


However, the real-world mass-market reality is that some pressings can be horrible and very few people have the wherewithal or desire or test equipment or test records to set up a turntable to achieve these results.

My reality and experiences may not match yours, and that's fine. Vinyl today is certainly not for everyone, but its growing in popularity despite very few people taking the time to set up the gear correctly. The same is true for reel to reel tape where the tribal knowledge to set the machines up correctly is dying off with the old timers who have the knowledge, and what trickles into the internet is mostly rubbish.
The young folks I know who've taken up vinyl are into it for big format artwork and the retro tech experience and basically because it's seen as cool and the acts they're into are releases them as boutique items. They couldn't care less about the minutia of setup or sonic LP baths or antistatic mats. They mostly don't treat their records like old school audiophiles did in the LP era. Only old farts and old farts in training now do that. The rest of LP buyers treat them like most people did in the LP era.
 

pseudoid

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No matter how quiet the vinyl surface, the cartridge will have about a 70 dB limit because of Johnson noise.
"Virgin Vinyl" was a selling point because it was said to be less noisy.
In those decades, you had to believe some of the stuff you heard, despite the fact that you had BS protectors...
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I'm afraid someone with the screen name 'MakeMineVinyl' would say that.




'Almost dead silent' and 'one minor tic' does not rival digital. (And will it remain almost dead silent and mono-ticc'ed over years of play?)



The young folks I know who've taken up vinyl are into it for big format artwork and the retro tech experience and basically because it's seen as cool and the acts they're into are releases them as boutique items. They couldn't care less about the minutia of setup or sonic LP baths or antistatic mats. They mostly don't treat their records like old school audiophiles did in the LP era. Only old farts and old farts in training now do that. The rest of LP buyers treat them like most people did in the LP era.
My screen name, as I've mentioned several times before, is a compromise because I am above all into open reel tape, but a screen name like "MakeMineMylar" or MakeMineAcetate" (the material used as a base for recording tape) would go over the heads of practically everyone here. So Its "MakeMineVinyl", even though a minority of my time is spent actually listening to vinyl.

I never have argued that vinyl is the equal of digital in every way because it clearly isn't. What I have said is that in my day to day experience with good vinyl and a good and properly set up turntable, noise contribution at normal listening levels is a non-issue.

If that offends your very soul, well, in the words of Rhett Butler "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn". :facepalm:
 

krabapple

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My screen name, as I've mentioned several times before, is a compromise because I am above all into open reel tape, but a screen name like "MakeMineMylar" or MakeMineAcetate" (the material used as a base for recording tape) would go over the heads of practically everyone here. So Its "MakeMineVinyl", even though a minority of my time is spent actually listening to vinyl.

MakeMineRTR?

I never have argued that vinyl is the equal of digital in every way because it clearly isn't. What I have said is that in my day to day experience with good vinyl and a good and properly set up turntable, noise contribution at normal listening levels is a non-issue.

Sure, that can happen. That's quite an alignment of stars though.

If that offends your very soul, well, in the words of Rhett Butler "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn". :facepalm:

As god is my witness, I'll never let it offend my very soul. :cool:
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Okay! You had me fooled, thinking that your first name was Make.
I will try to think of (and address) you as Mr.Mylar from now on.;)
Its "Mr. 1.5mil Mylar" to you. :cool:
 

MakeMineVinyl

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SIY

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That's still low enough to allow no perceived noise increase when switching from a digital input to an analog phono one in a real room, and given realistic volume control levels. Of course noise can be provoked even from a digital input with enough gain boost, but that's not real world and I don't listen like that. Do you listen like that? ;)
I don’t, but I’ve never heard silent vinyl, either.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I don’t, but I’ve never heard silent vinyl, either.
I have, and again I stress at normal listening levels. And I should also stress that completely silent is more the exception than the rule.
 

JP

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I have, and again I stress at normal listening levels. And I should also stress that completely silent is more the exception than the rule.

If you're trying to pick a fight that "what I hear cannot possibly be so because.....reasons", please don't bother. I'm engineer enough to understand noise floors, and when I cannot hear added noise upon needle drop, then there's no noise upon needle drop.

Just trying to figure out where the goal posts are moving to. For some reason I'm always caught off guard, particular on this forum, with how often and how much the term "dead silent" is flat-out abused. I've no challenge if you're talking about what's practical to you in your given situation. I'll just note that's not what you'd said.
 

pseudoid

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So...
What ever happened with "tangential (linear) tracking" turntables?
Then, there was also that "laser pick-up" turntable that may (or may not) have been attempted to be used for archiving by the Library of Congress or National Archives and Records Administration, or sumsuch.
Both had made sense, before CDs bulldozed the industry.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Just trying to figure out where the goal posts are moving to. For some reason I'm always caught off guard, particular on this forum, with how often and how much the term "dead silent" is flat-out abused. I've no challenge if you're talking about what's practical to you in your given situation. I'll just note that's not what you'd said.
I thought I was being extremely clear. What I hear is what I hear. I'm not in the habit of posting bullshit for the sake of bullshit.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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So...
What ever happened with "tangential (linear) tracking" turntables?
Then, there was also that "laser pick-up" turntable that may (or may not) have been attempted to be used for archiving by the Library of Congress or National Archives and Records Administration, or sumsuch.
Both had made sense, before CDs bulldozed the industry.
I used to have a Rabco linear tracking turntable, and it was more of a problem than not. The motor which propelled the arm across the record could be plainly heard when it spooled up. When the battery which powered the arm went flat, the arm ceased to track - obviously a problem. :confused:
 
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