Topping E50 Review (Balanced DAC)

[bud947]

@bogi thank you for explaining the principle. Now I understand the DAC hardware oversampling and later stage filtering to get the analog signal.
Sorry for the dumb question but in this case at which stage does the preamp of the E50 DAC lower the volume ?

 

[aftermast]

today I was able to get the auto standby feature working with USB connected to Raspberry Pi (I use picoreplayer). If I stop playing, the E50 will return to standby until I hit play again or play music through coaxial or optical. (One note that I wasn't able to get this working on picoreplayer 8.0, I had to use 7.0)

This was thanks to some info I found in the Topping E30 thread on this site to add a udev rule. It's the exact same one for E30 as E50:

Topping E30 DAC Review

Please, links. I will dig some up when I'm back at my desk... In the mean time, can you find any controlled tests that support your conclusion? Once controls are in place (level matched by VM to .1 volts, unknown source) the differences almost magically disappear. @levimax did a test of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[bogi]

Sorry for the dumb question but in this case at which stage does the preamp of the E50 DAC lower the volume ?

That oversampling is in more stages. Usual implementation is that the 1st stage can be fully or partially skipped if you feed the DAC with higher sample rate PCM signal. For example when you are sending 768k sample rate content to DAC, the 1st stage may be completely skipped. If you are playing 192k file, the first stage may go from 192 to 768k. The 1st stage oversampling ends at some common frequency for 44.1k / 48k sample rate families, for example 705.6 / 768k. Then at that rate the digital volume control may occur. Then the 2nd oversampling stage is usually a simpler one (repeating the previous sample or simple linear interpolation), because computing capabilities of a $10 DAC chips don't allow more at so high rates. Take it only as an example how it could work. The ESS schematics does not show much, for example https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/ES9068A-Product-Brief-v0.2.pdf

 

[bud947]

That oversampling is in more stages. Usual implementation is that the 1st stage can be fully or partially skipped if you feed the DAC with higher sample rate PCM signal. For example when you are sending 768k sample rate content to DAC, the 1st stage may be completely skipped. If you are playing 192k file, the first stage may go from 192 to 768k. The 1st stage oversampling ends at some common frequency for 44.1k / 48k sample rate families, for example 705.6 / 768k. Then at that rate the digital volume control may occur. Then the 2nd oversampling stage is usually a simpler one (repeating the previous sample or simple linear interpolation), because computing capabilities of a $10 DAC chips don't allow more at so high rates. Take it only as an example how it could work. The ESS schematics does not show much, for example https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/ES9068A-Product-Brief-v0.2.pdf

Extremely interesting. Now I also get why some may want to feed their DAC with Hi Res and DSD files.
It also explain why you should lower the gain before it reach the DAC. If you feed the DAC with data with no headroom, intersampling will likely go over 0dbfs and you'll get clipped analog signal at the last stage.

Last question if I may. My system is as following :
TV(optical)/Streamer(coax) -> Topping E50 (TRS out) -> Audient id14 mkii (TRS in) -> PC Win 10 (usb) -> Audient mkii (TRS out) -> Presonus SUB+monitor (TRS in).

Topping E50 is feeding the id14 mkii ADC with extremely low distorted analog signal that is upsampled to 96khz/24bits and then played back (after room correction from REW + Equalizer APO). Do I need additional headroom from windows other than the CAudioLimiter (0.14db) ?

 

[bogi]

Now I also get why some may want to feed their DAC with Hi Res and DSD files.

That's the point which most people don't understand.

Do I need additional headroom from windows other than the CAudioLimiter (0.14db) ?

I am using ASIO or WASAPI, so I don't have experience. What I found on web indicates that lowering digital volume about few dB may be desirable.
Search for CAudioLimiter here:

Ending the Windows Audio Quality Debate

A debate has been long raging in the audio community that Windows isn't fit for use in a high resolution audio system. Sceptics counterargued that bits are bits and Windows audio degradations are a figment of an over-active audiophile imagination. I decided to investigate this as I kept...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Well-Tempered Computer

 

[EricAMD1]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping E50 balanced USB DAC. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $269. I just reviewed its companion headphone amplifier, the Topping L50.

The E50 takes my favorite orange LED display and makes it even nicer!

View attachment 150583

It is a gorgeous bright orange display. A single button turns the unit on and cycles through the inputs. You also get a remote control:

View attachment 150584

As you see, power is provided through a 5 volt barrel connector. Topping provides a USB to barrel cable adapter so you can use any USB power supply.

As with more recent Topping products, it uses TRS output for balanced output instead of XLR which takes up a lot more space.

Topping E50 Measurements
As usual we start without dashboard. Let's test the balanced output with USB input:

View attachment 150585

Another exemplary performance from Topping, landing it almost at top of all DACs ever tested:
View attachment 150587

RCA output is nearly as good:

View attachment 150588

Noise performance is excellent as well:

View attachment 150589

Linearity is as perfect as you can get:
View attachment 150590

IMD performance is excellent:
View attachment 150591

I see a hint of ESS dac chip IMD hump. I wonder if that is what powers it.

Multitone performance is superb with almost no frequency dependency:
View attachment 150593

Jitter over USB is perfect:
View attachment 150594

It degrades just a hair over Toslink/Coax:
View attachment 150595

There are three filers available:
View attachment 150597

They impact our THD+N vs frequency thusly:
View attachment 150599

Conclusions
What can I say but another star performance from Topping. Company is so focused on squeezing every bit of noise and distortion out of these products while providing them to us at bargain prices. And in this case, great looks as well. I wish I could complain about something but nothing comes to mind.

-----------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

New here so I am probably doing it wrong. Anyhow, I really do appreciate the science based approach. The EQ suggestions (from the review on this site) for my Sundaras are really good. But the question I have is how to understand something about this DAC (which I own) and the Khadas Tone Board (which I own). I would guess from reading about both here that both must be linear vs. frequency response and measure very well. However, I note that the Khadas sounds rolled off in the treble by comparison. This was confirmed by "No Theme Review"

who is the type of person to not buy into any BS about differences in sound unless he can hear it in A/B via a switch box. I don't have a direct preference between the DACs on my Sundaras (2020) per se but is there anything in the measurements which can point to for this rolled off observations for the Khadas? The E50 / Tone Board is driving a Vorzuge Pure II headphone amp.

 

[ceausuc]

I don't have a direct preference between the DACs on my Sundaras (2020) per se but is there anything in the measurements which can point to for this rolled off observations for the Khadas? The E50 / Tone Board is driving a Vorzuge Pure II headphone amp.

How about the bass? Do you find it equal (as quantity) on those two dacs?

IMHO it is not the KTB that is rolled off, E50 has like +1db on treble. And I think not only there, on (mid?)bass also (I believe it is easy to hear that too), people refer to that as 'fuller'.
I would say E50 has a 'sound', like a 'loudness' preset which makes its somehow more 'exciting'.
I find it (by far) superior to KTB on every respect.

 

[half_dog]

New here so I am probably doing it wrong. Anyhow, I really do appreciate the science based approach. The EQ suggestions (from the review on this site) for my Sundaras are really good. But the question I have is how to understand something about this DAC (which I own) and the Khadas Tone Board (which I own). I would guess from reading about both here that both must be linear vs. frequency response and measure very well. However, I note that the Khadas sounds rolled off in the treble by comparison. This was confirmed by "No Theme Review"

who is the type of person to not buy into any BS about differences in sound unless he can hear it in A/B via a switch box. I don't have a direct preference between the DACs on my Sundaras (2020) per se but is there anything in the measurements which can point to for this rolled off observations for the Khadas? The E50 / Tone Board is driving a Vorzuge Pure II headphone amp.

I have both DACs and I may try to measure them and compare later. These days I measured KTB and E30 for a AB testing. Filters differences aside, their frequency response had less than +-0.1 dB of variation and I couldn't tell them apart...
I have both DACs and I may try to measure them and compare later. These days I measured KTB and E30 for a AB testing. Filters differences aside, their frequency response had less than +-0.1 dB of variation and I couldn't tell them apart...
Ah, your board firmware is up to date? People were reporting some KTB were sounding harsh and the latest firmware may have solved it.

 

[EricAMD1]

I have both DACs and I may try to measure them and compare later. These days I measured KTB and E30 for a AB testing. Filters differences aside, their frequency response had less than +-0.1 dB of variation and I couldn't tell them apart...
I have both DACs and I may try to measure them and compare later. These days I measured KTB and E30 for a AB testing. Filters differences aside, their frequency response had less than +-0.1 dB of variation and I couldn't tell them apart...
Ah, your board firmware is up to date? People were reporting some KTB were sounding harsh and the latest firmware may have solved it.

It does not sound harsh (KTB), but I will check to see if there is a FW update for it. To me the KTB is smoother but less detailed than the E50.

 

[EricAMD1]

I have both DACs and I may try to measure them and compare later. These days I measured KTB and E30 for a AB testing. Filters differences aside, their frequency response had less than +-0.1 dB of variation and I couldn't tell them apart...
I have both DACs and I may try to measure them and compare later. These days I measured KTB and E30 for a AB testing. Filters differences aside, their frequency response had less than +-0.1 dB of variation and I couldn't tell them apart...
Ah, your board firmware is up to date? People were reporting some KTB were sounding harsh and the latest firmware may have solved it.

How about the bass? Do you find it equal (as quantity) on those two dacs?

IMHO it is not the KTB that is rolled off, E50 has like +1db on treble. And I think not only there, on (mid?)bass also (I believe it is easy to hear that too), people refer to that as 'fuller'.
I would say E50 has a 'sound', like a 'loudness' preset which makes its somehow more 'exciting'.
I find it (by far) superior to KTB on every respect.

I think the resolution in the bass is better than the KTB. It definitely seems to be fuller in the sub bass than the KTB. Because of the KTB rolled off highs, vocals seem more intimate and the image more grounded on the KTB. I have a A30 pro coming to see how it compares to my Vorzuge pure 2 with both DACS

 

[Jtakob]

I just received my E50. Is it normal, that there is a popping sound when pausing the music? It doesn't happen as often anymore since I updated the firmware from 1.05 to 1.06 but it still happens way more frequently than with the atom dac, zen dac or e30.

Thanks for helping me.

 

[Martinvb]

I just received my E50. Is it normal, that there is a popping sound when pausing the music? It doesn't happen as often anymore since I updated the firmware from 1.05 to 1.06 but it still happens way more frequently than with the atom dac, zen dac or e30.

Thanks for helping me.

No such problems here, with 1.05 firmware (and Volumio 3.x).

 

[kchap]

I just received my E50. Is it normal, that there is a popping sound when pausing the music? It doesn't happen as often anymore since I updated the firmware from 1.05 to 1.06 but it still happens way more frequently than with the atom dac, zen dac or e30.

Thanks for helping me.

No problems for me. Volumio and MOde in past. The fact that it happens with others DACs makes it seem like a problem with your PC/Streamer.

 

[Jtakob]

No such problems here, with 1.05 firmware (and Volumio 3.x).

Ok thanks. I also don't have that problem when using moode. I'm going to test it with android and iPad os too and report back.

 

[MeZoX]

I wish I could complain about something but nothing comes to mind.

maybe since it has became quite easy to develop a DAC with Exemplary noise reduction and performance , can the review make further analysis on the items that may affect its reliability , quality of electrical components such as Capacitors and if internal operating temperature are suitable for the rated operating temps of its internal components

 

[BDWoody]

who is the type of person to not buy into any BS about differences in sound unless he can hear it in A/B via a switch box.

Welcome to the site!

Doesn't look like he used any sight controls. That kind of sighted comparison really doesn't mean much. No one has demonstrated this with a properly controlled listening test.

Our host did a video on listening tests, and how important it is to use basic controls.

 

[half_dog]

I just received my E50. Is it normal, that there is a popping sound when pausing the music? It doesn't happen as often anymore since I updated the firmware from 1.05 to 1.06 but it still happens way more frequently than with the atom dac, zen dac or e30.

Thanks for helping me.

If I'm not mistaken that's a muting function implemented by Topping on some of their DACs (D10s, D10 bal, E30 newer batchs). It's not a problem but can be annoying, even more when using IEMs. I took a time to get used to with the E50 and D10s.

 

[Rottmannash]

If I'm not mistaken that's a muting function implemented by Topping on some of their DACs (D10s, D10 bal, E30 newer batchs). It's not a problem but can be annoying, even more when using IEMs. I took a time to get used to with the E50 and D10s.

I hear it on most track changes, even the same rate/bit depth/same album on the E30 but no the D70 or the D90SE. I believe I also heard it on the D10B but can't remember since I took it out of my HP system.

 

[Filio45]

Does the E50 have anykind of protection circuitry against plugging in a wrong voltage psu, such as 9V for example? @JohnYang1997

 

[wyup]

That oversampling is in more stages. Usual implementation is that the 1st stage can be fully or partially skipped if you feed the DAC with higher sample rate PCM signal. For example when you are sending 768k sample rate content to DAC, the 1st stage may be completely skipped. If you are playing 192k file, the first stage may go from 192 to 768k. The 1st stage oversampling ends at some common frequency for 44.1k / 48k sample rate families, for example 705.6 / 768k. Then at that rate the digital volume control may occur. Then the 2nd oversampling stage is usually a simpler one (repeating the previous sample or simple linear interpolation), because computing capabilities of a $10 DAC chips don't allow more at so high rates. Take it only as an example how it could work. The ESS schematics does not show much, for example https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/ES9068A-Product-Brief-v0.2.pdf

How do you know there are two stages oversampling on this dac? First at 705.6/768k and the second at which frequency? You mentioned about 10 Mhz earlier.
In case of choosing PCM to DSD upsampling, would it be better or more close to 'second stage' than the former?
If this dac plays native DSD512 at 44.1Khz, which is 22.57 Mhz according to an earlier post, this frequency is higher than 10 Mhz, so does DSD do a second stage aswell?