[Help] Solving our Topping E30 DAC issue once and for all !

[Jose Hidalgo]

Hi, please bear with me if you're willing to help. Thank you.

As some of you know, my GF and I have recently bought 2 Topping E30 USB DACs + 2 Topping L30 headphone amps (apologies if I repeat myself, this is for the people who don't know yet). All that equipment is meant to power our small collection of headphones (Nighthawk Carbon, HD600, Sundara, MDR-CD1000, plus some minor stuff). We often listen to music together, i.e. same song playing on two different headphones at the same time.

So far all the hardware works perfectly, with our Windows 8.1 laptop as source...

... except for a little software detail : we can't yet EQ our headphones individually when listening to them together, like planned in this nice diagram.
We can EQ them individually and listen to one of them at a time (works great), but we can't EQ them individually when listening to them together.

That is only due to an unexpected software bug : ASIO4ALL doesn't seem to detect USB Topping DACs, at least in our Windows 8.1 laptop.
We have tried everything : unplugging/replugging the DACs, rebooting the PC, uninstalling/reinstalling (both ASIO4ALL and Topping ASIO driver)... It doesn't work. ASIO4ALL only detects our motherboard audio, not our DACs.

Now that we're facing that unexpected software bug, we still have different scenarios and time to choose the best one :


1. Get a new, corrected, ASIO4ALL version

​

I've filed a bug report by email, aimed at ASIO4ALL developer, Michael Tippach, but he hasn't replied yet.​

We don't know if he will reply or not. We don't even know if he's still active, since the latest ASIO4ALL release is from 2017.​

​

BTW, to those who think ASIO4ALL won't work for whatever reason, let me tell you this : IT WORKS. Other people have already tried this same setup successfully with other DACs (and that includes dealing with clock sync issues, so let's not talk about it here). The only problem we're facing here is the non-detection of our Topping DACs. Once ASIO4ALL can detect them, everything will be instantly solved.​

​

​

2. Find an ASIO4ALL alternative

​

If we don't get a reply from ASIO4ALL's developer, we'd need an alternative software that would be able to detect our Topping DACs, while performing the same function (receive 4 channels, send 2+2 channels).​

​

Possible alternatives include :​

• Free software : JACK Audio, Voicemeeter Banana, Equalizer APO...
• Commercial software : Ploytec USB Audio driver, Virtual Audio Cable, Virtual Audio Stream, JRiver...

But I don't know if any of them can perform the required function. At least ASIO4ALL is known to work and be relatively stable.​

Maybe some of you are familiar with some of these software and could tell us about it.​

3. Upgrade to Windows 10

The ASIO4ALL issue may be due to the fact that our laptop is under Windows 8.1. It's a possibility, but it hasn't been proven yet.​

Some people on ASR (e.g. @Veri ) have suggested that we upgrade to Windows 10. I guess it makes sense : latest version, latest drivers, etc..​

It could work, but nobody knows yet if it would work. So before buying an expensive software upgrade and performing it (which would take hours, not to mention saving all data just in case), we'd need at least to be pretty sure that ASIO4ALL will detect our DACs under Windows 10.​

​

For that purpose, since we don't have any Windows 10 PC, we'd need at least one of you to be kind enough to perform this test :​

1. Install ASIO4ALL on a Windows 10 PC, checking the "offline settings" option during install (it won't hurt your PC, that's guaranteed),
2. Launch the ASIO4ALL offline settings,
3. Check if it detects your Topping DAC (try plugging/unplugging it from an USB port - the test must be performed with USB, not SPDIF),
4. Uninstall it.

We have already asked twice in the E30/L30 threads, but so far nobody has answered our call. Maybe third time's the charm ? ​

Come on guys, it's only a couple minutes and we desperately need that answer...​

4. Have Topping add a "DAC aggregation option" to their drivers

I've already made a formal request to Topping's Tech Service, hoping for the best. Other DAC manufacturers such as Mytek have provided such feature in the past. ASR member @Kal Rubinson has already tried aggregated Mytek DACs with Roon (see here ).​

​

On the tech side, ASIO 2.3 added CanTimeInfo and CanTimeCode queries to the driver and also allowed for internal buffering, so it'd be possible to write an aggregate wrapper. This would only require a little work from Topping : basically implementing timecode info in their drivers.​

​

Maybe people like @JohnYang1997 could support this idea, but I don't know if he will read this message, so it's a shot in the dark.​

​

5. Sell the 2 Topping E30 DACs and replace them with a single multichannel DAC

​

This may be a more radical solution, but why not, only if nothing else works.​

The multichannel DAC would need to be at least as transparent to the ear as the E30, which limits possible choices.​

​

Okto Research dac8 Pro comes to mind, but not only does it cost 989 € : it's also overkill for our use (8 channels when we only need 4, XLR outputs...).​

Are there any cheaper (and yet good enough) DAC alternatives with 4 channels or more ?​

​

I'd like to avoid the usual "home studio audio interfaces" that aren't intended for hi-fi use : they provide lots of useless functions, and their measurements aren't generally nearly as good as the E30's.​

Bottom line : could any of you please help with any of these 5 points ? Thanks in advance !

 

[raif71]

Nice read. Reminds me of the time you asked help to identify a song. Eventually you got the song and said something about not giving up. Hopefully this post will lead you to the same success.

 

[McFly]

Go Apple Mac.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I've already made a formal request to Topping's Tech Service, hoping for the best. Other DAC manufacturers such as Mytek have provided such feature in the past. ASR member @Kal Rubinson has already tried aggregated Mytek DACs with Roon (see here ).

Note that I was not successful with Roon, only with JRMC and only with MacOS.

 

[threni]

Go Apple Mac.

He's using USB.
https://www.factmag.com/2019/02/19/apple-mac-2018-audio-glitching-bug-reported/

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Nice read. Reminds me of the time you asked help to identify a song. Eventually you got the song and said something about not giving up. Hopefully this post will lead you to the same success.

Thanks buddy. I don't give up. I always find a way. I guess that defines me pretty well.

Note that I was not successful with Roon, only with JRMC and only with MacOS.

Hi Kal Yes, in fact my point here is not about the player but about being able to aggregate DACs.
You succeeded in aggregating DACs and had trouble with one of the players.
I have no issues with the player (foobar2000) but I need to be able to aggregate DACs.
And about the OS, I need somebody to test Windows 10 detection of Topping DACs with ASIO4ALL. I can't believe nobody has tried yet.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Guys, in case nobody has noticed, we're asking for help here For example, we need at least ONE OF YOU to take TWO MINUTES of his time and test ASIO4ALL Topping DAC detection on Windows 10. It's extremely easy to do, but we can't do it on our side !

Is that too much to ask on ASR ? Because this is at least the fourth time we're asking this, and not a single one of you has answered...
Of course nobody's entitled to anything. But this request REALLY doesn't sound unreasonable. I'd do it for somebody else if I could !

 

[Hemi-Demon]

Windows 10 has quite a few years of development now, and it has far outpassed anything that 7, and 8.1 can do. Just upgrade the OS, find a nice VST3 based EQ and enjoy your devices with the supplied Win10 drivers. its asking a lot for a company to code for a OS that Microsoft doesn't even want to support anymore.

ASIO4All hasn't been updated in years, that's not Topping's issue, imo.

 

[threni]

Windows 10 has quite a few years of development now, and it has far outpassed anything that 7, and 8.1 can do. Just upgrade the OS, find a nice VST3 based EQ and enjoy your devices with the supplied Win10 drivers. its asking a lot for a company to code for a OS that Microsoft doesn't even want to support anymore.

ASIO4All hasn't been updated in years, that's not Topping's issue, imo.

Windows 8.1 is end of life and anyone using it now is taking a bit of a risk. You can upgrade from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 for free.

 

[Vini darko]

Hi I had a google. Virtual audio cable keeps being mentioned for getting audio to two devices simultaneously. Im not a computer guy so may not be fully understanding things. Its a current program recently updated.
Edit: I see you've mentioned it already in the list of possibilities.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

To Hemi-demon and threni : you talk about upgrading to Windows 10 like it's a walk in the park. It's definitely not. It's a long and painful process. Not only the update itself on a 7-y.o. PC (last update I did for my ex took hours and hours with all the subsequent Windows updates), but also learning to use the new system (new habits, etc.). Sure, it's feasible. But if we can avoid it, we will. So even if the Windows update was for free, we still wouldn't do it without being sure that our Topping DACs can get detected with ASIO4ALL. Is it really so difficult for ANY of the ASR members to perform that test ?... Because we'll just keep kindly asking, sorry.

If you look at the OP, upgrading to Win 10 is #3 in our priority list. So we'll go through #1 and #2 first, and if they don't work, then we'll gladly go to #3.

ASIO4ALL hasn't been updated because it works very well in most cases. It's not the kind of software you update every 3 months, look at its changelog.
I've searched everywhere for a better alternative for aggregating DACs. I don't know any. Do you ?...

As for Windows 8.1 being EOL and people "taking a bit of a risk", I'd just say "lol". I'm an IT guy and my main PC (not the audio laptop - my main PC) is on Win 7 SP1. Works perfectly, like REALLY perfectly. There is nothing that Win 10 could give me on that PC that I don't have already, so I have no reason at all to upgrade it.

To Vini darko : yes, Virtual Audio Cable is an option, like mentioned in the OP (a commercial one though). I'd need to ask its developer in order to be sure that it would work with our DACs before investing more money.

 

[threni]

As for Windows 8.1 being EOL and people "taking a bit of a risk", I'd just say "lol". I'm an IT guy and my main PC (not the audio laptop - my main PC) is on Win 7 SP1. Works perfectly, like REALLY perfectly. There is nothing that Win 10 could give me on that PC that I don't have already, so I have no reason at all to upgrade it.

You're an IT guy but upgrading Windows is a problem? It's automated and trivial. Takes some time so get a coffee. Windows has worked the same way since forever so there's little learning curve you didn't already experience going from Windows 7 to Windows 8.1. You say you'd have to back up your data first but on an out of support os getting no security updates obviously you're doing that already, right? The danger in using an os that's been abandoned by the vendor isn't that it will suddenly stop working, but that you are at increasing risk of being attacked and having keyloggers or ransomware installed.
Whatever, that's my advice. I'd help you with the testing if I could but I've long since stopped using Windows on PCs I'm not paid to use.

 

[raif71]

To Hemi-demon and threni : you talk about upgrading to Windows 10 like it's a walk in the park. It's definitely not. It's a long and painful process. Not only the update itself on a 7-y.o. PC (last update I did for my ex took hours and hours with all the subsequent Windows updates), but also learning to use the new system (new habits, etc.). Sure, it's feasible. But if we can avoid it, we will. So even if the Windows update was for free, we still wouldn't do it without being sure that our Topping DACs can get detected with ASIO4ALL. Is it really so difficult for ANY of the ASR members to perform that test ?... Because we'll just keep kindly asking, sorry.

If you look at the OP, upgrading to Win 10 is #3 in our priority list. So we'll go through #1 and #2 first, and if they don't work, then we'll gladly go to #3.

ASIO4ALL hasn't been updated because it works very well in most cases. It's not the kind of software you update every 3 months, look at its changelog.
I've searched everywhere for a better alternative for aggregating DACs. I don't know any. Do you ?...

As for Windows 8.1 being EOL and people "taking a bit of a risk", I'd just say "lol". I'm an IT guy and my main PC (not the audio laptop - my main PC) is on Win 7 SP1. Works perfectly, like REALLY perfectly. There is nothing that Win 10 could give me on that PC that I don't have already, so I have no reason at all to upgrade it.

To Vini darko : yes, Virtual Audio Cable is an option, like mentioned in the OP (a commercial one though). I'd need to ask its developer in order to be sure that it would work with our DACs before investing more money.

I don't think it is more of being difficult to test but whether it will be a hassle to install or modify something on the computer or it could be any other reasons. I'm reminded one time I asked a member to stack two identical amps together because he happens to have two but he gave some reason not to do it. I'm cool with that and I'm fine with it . I suppose if you're persistent enough, somebody will eventually help you. Good luck and be patient.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

You're an IT guy but upgrading Windows is a problem?

Yes. Not because I can't do it, but because it's a real hassle, unnecessary at this point. It's not so easy as you say. It's much, much longer than you'd think, especially on an old laptop. Plus after the install is completed, you still have to run Windows Update and get/install the latest updates, which can take hours. Really, there's no point in discussing this. Thank you though, and yes, if you're not a Windows guy then this topic is probably useless to you.

I don't think it is more of being difficult to test but whether it will be a hassle to install or modify something on the computer or it could be any other reasons.

Yes, that is why I'd like to insist on this :

INSTALLING/UNINSTALLING ASIO4ALL IS HARMLESS AND TRIVIAL. I have done it myself several times.
The software is lightweight. It doesn't have any virus nor adware nor anything. The install is almost instant, only a reboot is advisable. It won't harm your system in any way. I can guarantee to 100% that it won't affect ANYTHING on the computer. After uninstall, the computer will be exactly as it was before install.

ASIO4ALL has been around for ages. Lots of people have been using it, including ASR members I'm sure.
So please people, don't let that prevent you from doing that short test. Thank you !

 

[threni]

Yes. Not because I can't do it, but because it's a real hassle, unnecessary at this point. It's not so easy as you say. It's much, much longer than you'd think, especially on an old laptop. Plus after the install is completed, you still have to run Windows Update and get/install the latest updates, which can take hours. Really, there's no point in discussing this. Thank you though, and yes, if you're not a Windows guy then this topic is probably useless to you.

It's exactly as easy as I think as I've done it many times. I said I only use Windows when I'm paid to, not that I'm unfamiliar with it. My current day job that's keeping me busy and listening to homebrew audio systems made primarily of raspberry pi and Lego during lockdown involves developing software for both Linux and Windows.

 

[raif71]

It's exactly as easy as I think as I've done it many times. I said I only use Windows when I'm paid to, not that I'm unfamiliar with it. My current day job that's keeping me busy and listening to homebrew audio systems made primarily of raspberry pi and Lego during lockdown involves developing software for both Linux and Windows.

What flavor of Linux are you using? I'm primarily on Centos 7 but sometimes I'm on Ubuntu 20.

 

[threni]

What flavor of Linux are you using? I'm primarily on Centos 7 but sometimes I'm on Ubuntu 20.

At home Ubuntu, kubuntu, Raspian/raspberry pi os and most recently Tiny Core which boots a crappy 13 year old 2 core 2gb former Windows laptop in under 10 seconds (now that's what I call a Windows update!). At work it's currently red hat (so essentially Centos) but the products I support run on sun, sco, hp etc.

 

[JohnYang1997]

This inherently doesn't work without the syncing between the two dacs. The XMOS interface is asynchronous. You can force it to work for a while and maybe you are lucky the oscillators are closely matched then you may not see issues. But this should require a real multichannel dac with dsp.

 

[JohnYang1997]

One possible option is to use a usb to spdif converter with multiple outputs. I only know DAW can be flexible enough to eq and send different audio to different output. If you know anything else that does this this will also work. Duplicate the tracks , eq each track, send the tracks to different spdif outputs.

 

[DirtyBumOak510]

The windows 10 upgrade is free... google it. Why not just upgrade?