You also could say: "I love how AN speakers make music"I love how AN gear plays music.
You also could say: "I love how AN speakers make music"I love how AN gear plays music.
You can say it either way. However you’d like. Though we push the “play” button on a reel to reel or CD player, not a “make” buttonYou also could say: "I love how AN speakers make music"
With "make music" I mean they have a sound of their own, they are not neutral. A voice, a musical instrument isn't, "shouldn't be" neutral. A speaker preferably should, if you want it to render voices, instruments realisticly.You can say it either way. However you’d like. Though we push the “play” button on a reel to reel or CD player, not a “make” button
I get about a bit to shows, meets, other enthusiast's houses, which is why I've auditioned so much - but I do happily buy on measurements alone. None of my main system was auditioned before purchase.You did what I recommended everyone do! Listen! Sounds like listening to the gear has helped you find what you do and don’t like.
Note—I said people should listen to a piece of gear before dismissing it based on measurements. You dismissed AN based on your preference! That’s great! I do that often for gear loved by many.
And I did not claim or assume that no one here has auditioned this stuff.
No speaker is truly neutral. I know this will be hugely controversial here, but the LS3/5a renders voices quite naturallyWith "make music" I mean they have a sound of their own, they are not neutral. A voice, a musical instrument isn't, "shouldn't be" neutral. A speaker preferably should, if you want it to render voices, instruments realisticly.
sweat shop China
Yes but they can do little else very well.No speaker is truly neutral. I know this will be hugely controversial here, but the LS3/5a renders voices quite naturally
No speaker is truly neutral. I know this will be hugely controversial here, but the LS3/5a renders voices quite natural.
OK, "neutralish" or "close (enough) to neutral" or "more neutral".No speaker is truly neutral. I know this will be hugely controversial here, but the LS3/5a renders voices quite naturally
Speaking of coloring the sound, if you want to do that. Isn't it easier to have transparent electronics paired with gadgets to be able to manipulate the FR and possibly add audible distortion? Then you can have both the uncolored signal and when you feel like what you put on with as much color as you want.I totally get why people would look at that video where he says "why would anyone pay $1600 for the PS Audio over the $80 Chinese DAC" - measurements are measurements. Look Audio Note uses the absolute best top-of-the-line Audio Precision that is available (the same one Amir is using) - PS Audio - look through their factory tours - they have all this measuring and test equipment too.
These are wealthy companies that hire degree-holding Engineers. who passed math and physics. The difference is that they listen and buy 30 DAC chips and say gee that's odd why does this older DAC chip sound so much better than this ESS Sabre DAC chip. Then they do some research and listen and adjust and listen and some of them will say - gee the distortion is a bit higher hear - but it brings 3 advantages over here. If we make the trade-off for better sound Stereophile and Amir are going to rip us - but it sounds better - oh damn but in order to do it we are going to need to use a transformer - oh shoot that is going to cost $180 for the part - so now we're going to be charging considerably more for a DAC that's going to measure worse - and we know that because we own the top of the line Audio Precision too!
The long-winded way to say - they KNOW how to make measurements darling - they can buy the $80 Chinese dac and reverse engineer it - Copy the Chinese for a change eh? They choose to make decisions based on music listening. They all know the textbook design and like their customers - they don't like the sound of the textbook design.
I make no value judgment - when I started in this hobby - all I cared about was measurements and buying what the recording studios used. And I think EVERYONE should hear them so they have a baseline for what is deemed to be the most accurate stuff - then have a listen to the long-lasting home audio brands SS and Tube and SET and then try to determine - okay what is that Tube preamp doing here - yes yes - less accurate but am I enjoying music better - can I listen to some of my lesser recordings now that I simply could not enjoy with my SS preamp? If yes - then you at least have a reason why someone else would want said tube preamp. You may not like what that tube preamp does to your best recordings, however. You may feel the tube makes your bad recordings more agreeable but it is marring your best recordings - well hold the phone - we do NOT live in a world where we have to make a choice - we can own BOTH. You say gee 50% of my music collection is ear-bleeding - but this tube set-up (preamp or integrated etc) makes them all enjoyable - but I like my SS or Class D system for the other 50% - so why not have your cake and eat it too?
Fortunately, it's really cheap to be able to buy the best-measuring stuff -buy Benchmark and Topping and Purifi - I guess I am all set - then I can go to ASR and ask this question:
Give me a list of the five best measuring loudspeakers for $2k, $3k, $4k etc. Whatever your price range is.
Then you build your excellent measurement system.
Then you can put together the goofball hocus pocus voodoo system for the touchy feelies. For this - you gotta just go listen and see if any of it lands.
BOLLOX!!!! They shreik/screech/quack in the upper mids according to age/batch to magnify distortion a little, some worse than others despite the BBC spec and tolerance, also with a one note bass thump designed in deliberately and a fizzed up tweeter to emphasise hiss - designed in for their OB role as general continuity boxes! Speech to me does not and never has sounded *quite natural* - sorry, but it just doesn't - and was never intended to if you know what LS3 and LS5 used to mean in the good old bad old days!No speaker is truly neutral. I know this will be hugely controversial here, but the LS3/5a renders voices quite naturally
Horias2000 seems to know his stuff so I suspect it's just set up for photography's sake.As an aside sir, he may design nice valve amps, but he needs to site that Rega deck better and lord knows if in that picture, the speakers are decoupled from the unit its sitting on, feeding back lovely (not) bass vibrations into the turntable. yes I know it's probably a staged pic to show the amp off and give some vibe on its size, but ignorant audiop-hiles will think that's an acceptable way to site and display their sound rig and believe me, it's not!!!
The best specs in the bloody world can't make up for bad siting of equipment as well as room acoustics, especially the speakers, where they're placed and the room itself which so often ruins aspirational sound systems.
You don't think it can sound more 'realistic' because it's a long way from accurate?Turned out it was rare active Linn Kans (yes, @Purité Audio and @Mart68, fuggin KANS) which never ever in a squillion years could *ever* be called a natural balance. On that occasion and on that radio broadcast, the sound actually *was* surprisingly realistic for some reason.
I perfectly well know what is Validity and reliability, not only in Psychology, but also in audio test. DBT is the golden standard for audio tests, with proved Validity and Reliability. Maybe you read somewhere how blind listening tests are done, but clearly you never done such test. Otherwise, you will accept that such tests are perfectly mirroring the real-life experience of music listening. Heck – participants in the audio DBT are listening music!You can look up Meyers. David G "Psychology" - and learn some introductory Psychology to understand what Validity and Reliability are. ..
Your ignorance of what the DBT test is about - is astounding!Psychologists and teachers know this. Look I get it - the current DBTs are "something" and you can argue it's better than doing sighted evaluations filled with all kinds of bias but the key importance is that a DBT can never prove that A=B - all they can do is say that the subject could not tell a difference between A and B better than chance in this particular test. So the fact that someone ran a test and no one could tell two amps apart does not then mean that no one can tell any two amps apart everywhere (ditto for cables/CD players/Streamers/tape decks etc)
That is straw-man argument. That guy maybe bought Benchmark exactly because it is the best measuring amplifier – he is just proud to own such an amplifier, although he can buy much cheaper amplifier, with somewhat higher distortion, but low enough to have same sonic transparency (according to DBT). It is the same situation when somebody buys Ferrari capable of speed over 200 mph, although the allowed max speed in USA is 80 mph (85 mph in Texas).On another forum there is someone who touts Benchmark because apparently, it's the best measuring amplifier in the history of the world - that very same guy would never be able to tell that amplifier apart from a $500 Rotel in a DBT because the distortion of the Rotel is so low already that no human could detect it from anything "lower" so why spend $3,000 on the Benchmark - all perfectly operating SS amps sound the same according to DBTs - indeed, one can buy a Rotel 1090 or that can output 1Kw at 1 ohm and run you $700 secondhand or any Bryston 3B which will hit higher watts than Benchmark and run you $500 and it may still have 10 years of warranty time on it - or buy a slew of class D amplifiers with big numbers and lower than the ear can detect distortion.
I have several dozens of diametrically opposite examples - so, do you admit you are wrong on this?Anyway - the poster on the other board ended up buying a Sonic Frontiers tube preamp - another guy on another forum is "all about the measurements" and dumped his Benchmark for a Yamaha S2200 which he claims "sounds better" (warmer) These are ASR kind of people - the problem I have is that it's all about the measurements until they "like the sound of" something else better. Once you go down the "I like the sound of X better than Benchmark" you are saying that you are putting a "preference" for a lesser measuring amplifier over a better measuring amplifier and once you do that - then it's preference vs preference.
Water please. Would you also want to ask your favorite artist to sound more to your likings himself, when you visit his concert?what is better is then to your taste. How do you want that favourite artist presented - do you want it balls accurate - Black Coffee - or do you want it with Cream - or do you want it with both Cream and Sugar. Or do you want Tea?
Maybe you could try to convince him to give that money to charity. The cable-placebo will work out, so he will be unsatisfied, having given it away anyhow.No one needs to be "saved" - there is a saying "Never feel sorry for anyone who owns a boat" - that saying came about because if you could afford a boat and the upkeep the boat requires - you have no money issues. And that is true for the guy I saw handing over an envelope to the Audio Note dealer here in Hong Kong with $12,000 USD to buy two AN Cables. I talked to him - he buys the best cables from all the companies - in cash. Is he buying a placebo? Maybe - but he's the guy with the boat - he doesn't need to be saved. If all these audio savers spent their time trying to convince the flat earthers and climate change deniers who are dumb as rocks - then they might put their time to good use. Saving some millionaires from spending too much on Tooobs and cables seems like a waste.
I continue on the team to pick up a few different (classics?) two-way speakers with a relatively large bass driver and tweeter without a waveguide. I'm including some pictures because pictures are always fun.AN is a cult, you can't discuss really with their following. But even in many subjectivist camps, they shake their head in disbelieve over AN and their claims and prices. But their cult followers keep pumping money in their productts....
Their stuff is not that special, not even on looks or design. It's old tech, not very well exeecuted nor build. You got other brands that also charge very high prices, but at least their devices look special, or are hand build and so are statement pieces with a high decorative value. AN is not that. They look very bland, and not that different from cheap aliexpress hifi devices in build quality and design. And they probally also don't measure better.
And that speaker is doing everything wrong in my book. The Snell E series were good speakers for their time, the AN-E not at all, it measures and souns terrible and is not that well build. Even Devore does that type of speaker better with their Orang Utang designs (and those are also crappy and overpriced). I heared both side by side next to an Dynaco A25XL (a 50 years old similar design speaker), and the Dynaco was way better subjectivly (and probally also objectivly, but i could not measure).
That Dynaco can be found for less than 1K in good shape, and a modern variation that is way better build can be build for 2K or so (even cheaper if the looks don't matter) as modern variations of the drivers are still made by Seas. The same for the Snell speakers. They used Vifa drivers (now sold under brand name of Scanspeak and Peerless, all three owned by Tymphany) that are still availeble in a modern form, and Snell E speaker can be build way better for far less (even commercially) than what AN charges for their bloated variation. And some do on diyaudio.com.
Much better for the mood than endless discussions, like in this threadI continue on the team to pick up a few different (classics?) two-way speakers with a relatively large bass driver and tweeter without a waveguide. I'm including some pictures because pictures are always fun.