Audio Note speakers

[Rõlnnbacke]

I love how AN gear plays music.

You also could say: "I love how AN speakers make music"

 

[JSnider]

You also could say: "I love how AN speakers make music"

You can say it either way. However you’d like. Though we push the “play” button on a reel to reel or CD player, not a “make” button

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

You can say it either way. However you’d like. Though we push the “play” button on a reel to reel or CD player, not a “make” button

With "make music" I mean they have a sound of their own, they are not neutral. A voice, a musical instrument isn't, "shouldn't be" neutral. A speaker preferably should, if you want it to render voices, instruments realisticly.

 

[Mart68]

You did what I recommended everyone do! Listen! Sounds like listening to the gear has helped you find what you do and don’t like.

Note—I said people should listen to a piece of gear before dismissing it based on measurements. You dismissed AN based on your preference! That’s great! I do that often for gear loved by many.

And I did not claim or assume that no one here has auditioned this stuff.

I get about a bit to shows, meets, other enthusiast's houses, which is why I've auditioned so much - but I do happily buy on measurements alone. None of my main system was auditioned before purchase.

Audionote is not for me but if someone does want that sort of presentation then it can be had for a lot less than they charge. They're not doing any magic and there's no secret to how it does what it does.

 

[JSnider]

With "make music" I mean they have a sound of their own, they are not neutral. A voice, a musical instrument isn't, "shouldn't be" neutral. A speaker preferably should, if you want it to render voices, instruments realisticly.

No speaker is truly neutral. I know this will be hugely controversial here, but the LS3/5a renders voices quite naturally

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

sweat shop China

Kef factory. From: https://www.soundstageaustralia.com... factory is in,and Product Manager Calvin Lee

 

[Sal1950]

Holy Cow!
I really didn't know anything about AN speakers, I just caught this thread and decided to look
at Atkinsons Stereophile measurements of the AN-E Lexus Signature and that's all I need to know.
Although he struggles hard not to really tear them up, you don't have to read between the lines to
see that JA was not very happy with them. One of the worst objective reviews I've ever read by him.

No speaker is truly neutral. I know this will be hugely controversial here, but the LS3/5a renders voices quite naturally

Yes but they can do little else very well.

 

[Mart68]

No speaker is truly neutral. I know this will be hugely controversial here, but the LS3/5a renders voices quite natural.

But you have the problem of how 'naturally' the voices were miked and recorded, or the quality of the live broadcast. Which you can't know.

The more accurate speaker will always give a more accurate rendition of the signal. It cannot be otherwise, and LS3 is not accurate - although I agree you can do a lot worse.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

No speaker is truly neutral. I know this will be hugely controversial here, but the LS3/5a renders voices quite naturally

OK, "neutralish" or "close (enough) to neutral" or "more neutral".

 

[DanielT]

I totally get why people would look at that video where he says "why would anyone pay $1600 for the PS Audio over the $80 Chinese DAC" - measurements are measurements. Look Audio Note uses the absolute best top-of-the-line Audio Precision that is available (the same one Amir is using) - PS Audio - look through their factory tours - they have all this measuring and test equipment too.

These are wealthy companies that hire degree-holding Engineers. who passed math and physics. The difference is that they listen and buy 30 DAC chips and say gee that's odd why does this older DAC chip sound so much better than this ESS Sabre DAC chip. Then they do some research and listen and adjust and listen and some of them will say - gee the distortion is a bit higher hear - but it brings 3 advantages over here. If we make the trade-off for better sound Stereophile and Amir are going to rip us - but it sounds better - oh damn but in order to do it we are going to need to use a transformer - oh shoot that is going to cost $180 for the part - so now we're going to be charging considerably more for a DAC that's going to measure worse - and we know that because we own the top of the line Audio Precision too!

The long-winded way to say - they KNOW how to make measurements darling - they can buy the $80 Chinese dac and reverse engineer it - Copy the Chinese for a change eh? They choose to make decisions based on music listening. They all know the textbook design and like their customers - they don't like the sound of the textbook design.

I make no value judgment - when I started in this hobby - all I cared about was measurements and buying what the recording studios used. And I think EVERYONE should hear them so they have a baseline for what is deemed to be the most accurate stuff - then have a listen to the long-lasting home audio brands SS and Tube and SET and then try to determine - okay what is that Tube preamp doing here - yes yes - less accurate but am I enjoying music better - can I listen to some of my lesser recordings now that I simply could not enjoy with my SS preamp? If yes - then you at least have a reason why someone else would want said tube preamp. You may not like what that tube preamp does to your best recordings, however. You may feel the tube makes your bad recordings more agreeable but it is marring your best recordings - well hold the phone - we do NOT live in a world where we have to make a choice - we can own BOTH. You say gee 50% of my music collection is ear-bleeding - but this tube set-up (preamp or integrated etc) makes them all enjoyable - but I like my SS or Class D system for the other 50% - so why not have your cake and eat it too?

Fortunately, it's really cheap to be able to buy the best-measuring stuff -buy Benchmark and Topping and Purifi - I guess I am all set - then I can go to ASR and ask this question:

Give me a list of the five best measuring loudspeakers for $2k, $3k, $4k etc. Whatever your price range is.

Then you build your excellent measurement system.

Then you can put together the goofball hocus pocus voodoo system for the touchy feelies. For this - you gotta just go listen and see if any of it lands.

Speaking of coloring the sound, if you want to do that. Isn't it easier to have transparent electronics paired with gadgets to be able to manipulate the FR and possibly add audible distortion? Then you can have both the uncolored signal and when you feel like what you put on with as much color as you want.

Loudspeaker you said. There, I think you should definitely listen and compare as many different ones as you have the time, desire and opportunity to do. Especially then with different solutions such as, electrostats, open baffles, dipoles, omnis, extremely narrow dispersion, coax, active ones, two channel multiple channels and so on. The list could be longer. In any case, listen to see what you like.

A subjective evaluation of speakers you can do is to have, for example, two pairs at home. Never mind analyzing and making an "objective" evaluation. Play with both pairs for six months. The ones you play with the most are the ones you like best. In this way, you let the subconscious rule completely. I have actually done that sometimes despite that I lean towards the objectivist approach regarding HiFi. But speakers are a different beast than a DAC on the other hand.

 

[DSJR]

No speaker is truly neutral. I know this will be hugely controversial here, but the LS3/5a renders voices quite naturally

BOLLOX!!!! They shreik/screech/quack in the upper mids according to age/batch to magnify distortion a little, some worse than others despite the BBC spec and tolerance, also with a one note bass thump designed in deliberately and a fizzed up tweeter to emphasise hiss - designed in for their OB role as general continuity boxes! Speech to me does not and never has sounded *quite natural* - sorry, but it just doesn't - and was never intended to if you know what LS3 and LS5 used to mean in the good old bad old days!

On one particular occasion I visited our main store to drop off and collect repairs and stock and thought two men were chatting in the large dem room next to the front door. Turned out it was rare active Linn Kans (yes, @Purité Audio and @Mart68, fuggin KANS) which never ever in a squillion years could *ever* be called a natural balance. On that occasion and on that radio broadcast, the sound actually *was* surprisingly realistic for some reason.

 

[DanielT]

As an aside sir, he may design nice valve amps, but he needs to site that Rega deck better and lord knows if in that picture, the speakers are decoupled from the unit its sitting on, feeding back lovely (not) bass vibrations into the turntable. yes I know it's probably a staged pic to show the amp off and give some vibe on its size, but ignorant audiop-hiles will think that's an acceptable way to site and display their sound rig and believe me, it's not!!!

The best specs in the bloody world can't make up for bad siting of equipment as well as room acoustics, especially the speakers, where they're placed and the room itself which so often ruins aspirational sound systems.

Horias2000 seems to know his stuff so I suspect it's just set up for photography's sake.

I take the opportunity to point out again that it is a damn fine tube amp built by Horias2000. I am impressed.

 

[Mart68]

Turned out it was rare active Linn Kans (yes, @Purité Audio and @Mart68, fuggin KANS) which never ever in a squillion years could *ever* be called a natural balance. On that occasion and on that radio broadcast, the sound actually *was* surprisingly realistic for some reason.

You don't think it can sound more 'realistic' because it's a long way from accurate?

Like with those audiophile recordings where people rave about the way the natural acoustic has been captured when it's really just a shit-ton of artificial reverb.

Reminds me of a bit from 'The Simpsons':

'Why you painting those horses to look like cows?'
'Cause cows don't look like cows on film, you have to use horses.'
'What do you do if you need a horse?'
'We just tape a bunch of dogs together.'

 

[Salt]

Weird discussion, but, as a star-cooking person once said: if it tastes, it tastes (quote: Schuhbeck).
Theoretically, we could construct a 'silent' speaker compartment by concrete (Beton), populate it with one, two, three or four drivers with low distorsions within their proposed range, arrange a low to nothing distorting amplification (hypex,purifi) via low to nothing distorting xovers, and all measurements then are well beyond standard.
And then we do listening test.
My just subjective projection: half will say "never heard this way sound can be reproduced" and will consider it might be a perspective for future investment, the other half will say "interesting, but this is not what I personally expect, audio should serve my preferences".
So what?
Some post in this forum (appreciated this much) responded to the question, why better measured gears should be preferred, that they give chance to more individuality, as there is the oppurtunity to top on personal EQ and distorsions as liked, but this not the case on basically distorting items.
Feels right.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

You can look up Meyers. David G "Psychology" - and learn some introductory Psychology to understand what Validity and Reliability are. ..

I perfectly well know what is Validity and reliability, not only in Psychology, but also in audio test. DBT is the golden standard for audio tests, with proved Validity and Reliability. Maybe you read somewhere how blind listening tests are done, but clearly you never done such test. Otherwise, you will accept that such tests are perfectly mirroring the real-life experience of music listening. Heck – participants in the audio DBT are listening music!
Audio science accept DBT as the ultimate audio test. You choose to be in the “Flat Earth Society”, denying validity and reliability of DBT. Do you really mean that you are smarter than all scientist in the Audio Engineering Society and they are all wrong?

Psychologists and teachers know this. Look I get it - the current DBTs are "something" and you can argue it's better than doing sighted evaluations filled with all kinds of bias but the key importance is that a DBT can never prove that A=B - all they can do is say that the subject could not tell a difference between A and B better than chance in this particular test. So the fact that someone ran a test and no one could tell two amps apart does not then mean that no one can tell any two amps apart everywhere (ditto for cables/CD players/Streamers/tape decks etc)

Your ignorance of what the DBT test is about - is astounding!

On another forum there is someone who touts Benchmark because apparently, it's the best measuring amplifier in the history of the world - that very same guy would never be able to tell that amplifier apart from a $500 Rotel in a DBT because the distortion of the Rotel is so low already that no human could detect it from anything "lower" so why spend $3,000 on the Benchmark - all perfectly operating SS amps sound the same according to DBTs - indeed, one can buy a Rotel 1090 or that can output 1Kw at 1 ohm and run you $700 secondhand or any Bryston 3B which will hit higher watts than Benchmark and run you $500 and it may still have 10 years of warranty time on it - or buy a slew of class D amplifiers with big numbers and lower than the ear can detect distortion.

That is straw-man argument. That guy maybe bought Benchmark exactly because it is the best measuring amplifier – he is just proud to own such an amplifier, although he can buy much cheaper amplifier, with somewhat higher distortion, but low enough to have same sonic transparency (according to DBT). It is the same situation when somebody buys Ferrari capable of speed over 200 mph, although the allowed max speed in USA is 80 mph (85 mph in Texas).

Anyway - the poster on the other board ended up buying a Sonic Frontiers tube preamp - another guy on another forum is "all about the measurements" and dumped his Benchmark for a Yamaha S2200 which he claims "sounds better" (warmer) These are ASR kind of people - the problem I have is that it's all about the measurements until they "like the sound of" something else better. Once you go down the "I like the sound of X better than Benchmark" you are saying that you are putting a "preference" for a lesser measuring amplifier over a better measuring amplifier and once you do that - then it's preference vs preference.

I have several dozens of diametrically opposite examples - so, do you admit you are wrong on this?

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

what is better is then to your taste. How do you want that favourite artist presented - do you want it balls accurate - Black Coffee - or do you want it with Cream - or do you want it with both Cream and Sugar. Or do you want Tea?

Water please. Would you also want to ask your favorite artist to sound more to your likings himself, when you visit his concert?

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

No one needs to be "saved" - there is a saying "Never feel sorry for anyone who owns a boat" - that saying came about because if you could afford a boat and the upkeep the boat requires - you have no money issues. And that is true for the guy I saw handing over an envelope to the Audio Note dealer here in Hong Kong with $12,000 USD to buy two AN Cables. I talked to him - he buys the best cables from all the companies - in cash. Is he buying a placebo? Maybe - but he's the guy with the boat - he doesn't need to be saved. If all these audio savers spent their time trying to convince the flat earthers and climate change deniers who are dumb as rocks - then they might put their time to good use. Saving some millionaires from spending too much on Tooobs and cables seems like a waste.

Maybe you could try to convince him to give that money to charity. The cable-placebo will work out, so he will be unsatisfied, having given it away anyhow.

Sometimes I think that people who buy expensive cables/snake oil, secretly doubt the quality of their gear, but they want to covince themselves and others that they make the right choises, are on the path to Perfection. But there are several motives, I guess.

 

[Mnyb]

Even if no speakers are truly neutral AN speakers can’t be the solution . There are others that at least give it a serious try.

 

[DanielT]

AN is a cult, you can't discuss really with their following. But even in many subjectivist camps, they shake their head in disbelieve over AN and their claims and prices. But their cult followers keep pumping money in their productts....

Their stuff is not that special, not even on looks or design. It's old tech, not very well exeecuted nor build. You got other brands that also charge very high prices, but at least their devices look special, or are hand build and so are statement pieces with a high decorative value. AN is not that. They look very bland, and not that different from cheap aliexpress hifi devices in build quality and design. And they probally also don't measure better.

And that speaker is doing everything wrong in my book. The Snell E series were good speakers for their time, the AN-E not at all, it measures and souns terrible and is not that well build. Even Devore does that type of speaker better with their Orang Utang designs (and those are also crappy and overpriced). I heared both side by side next to an Dynaco A25XL (a 50 years old similar design speaker), and the Dynaco was way better subjectivly (and probally also objectivly, but i could not measure).

That Dynaco can be found for less than 1K in good shape, and a modern variation that is way better build can be build for 2K or so (even cheaper if the looks don't matter) as modern variations of the drivers are still made by Seas. The same for the Snell speakers. They used Vifa drivers (now sold under brand name of Scanspeak and Peerless, all three owned by Tymphany) that are still availeble in a modern form, and Snell E speaker can be build way better for far less (even commercially) than what AN charges for their bloated variation. And some do on diyaudio.com.

I continue on the team to pick up a few different (classics?) two-way speakers with a relatively large bass driver and tweeter without a waveguide. I'm including some pictures because pictures are always fun.

The Dynaco A25XL you mention seems to be a classic. So much so that it has its own thread here on ASR:

1969-74 Dynaco A-25 speakers compared to modern designs?

I was just given a pair of early seventies Dynaco A-25 speakers, and am wondering if folks have experience with them? How would they stack up vs newer designs in the past 50 years-- will they hold up? Thanks

audiosciencereview.com

Speakers with variations on the team 8 inch bass and 1 inch tweeter. Mostly British stuff so DSJR (who also sold speakers) and you others from the British Isles are welcome to add information, or correct me if I'm wrong.

JPW P1. Vifa drives, both bass and tweeter. Here are a couple that are now with my parents.
(sorry I'm a bad photographer, poor sharpness in the picture).
JPW P1:

Pretty cool speakers, those JPW P1s, I must say. The bird that couldn't fly because there's actually a 3/4 inch tweeter in them (VIFA D19TD-05-08) +
8 inch bass driver (VIFA M21WG-09-08).It shouldn't work but is fun speakers nonetheless. Light thin walls, resonances, little bass in the lower registers and probably wacko off axes on probably on axes relatively bad as well (maybe I'll measure that some day) but despite that a couple of fun speakers. The stands they stand on are made for Heybrook HB1 speakers. Sharp spikes on the stands that can cut into the speakers, what the hell were the designers of them thinking with those destroyers for spikes?

Heybrook HB1, same bass as in JPW P1 if I remember correctly, that is VIFA M21WG-09-08.

Heybrook HB1:

Another classic combination 8 inch bass 1 inch tweeter is the variant of bass driver B200 and tweeter t27 that KEF made in different models. The t27 tweeter is also available Rogers LS3/5A (don't buy a new variant of them, unnecessarily expensive for rather mediocre or poor performance).
Here KEF Cadenza without speaker grills. The B200 + t27 and a passive radiator. I had a pair of Cadenzas a couple of years ago. I thought they were ok.
KEF Cadenza:

QRS 500, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. Sweden's "folk speaker" with Vifa 8 inch bass and Vifa 1 inch tweeter.
QRS 500:

Speaking of DIY, I know a person who just now started a project to mount a Somasonus WG with SB26ADC-C000-4 tweeter in a pair of QRS500. Well, maybe it can be good. The speaker boxes themselves are ok. I know nothing about the quality of the bass driver. Maybe it can be reasonably good speakers, with the right type of crossover, that is. I'll see if he gets them together and shows them at a vintage DIY fair I usually go to.
(he has 3d printer and the SB tweeters plus a couple of QRS500 he doesn't use now so why not try it, was his reasoning)

Waveguides | somasonus

www.somasonus.net

There are probably lots of similar variants of 8 inch bass and 1 inch tweeter speakers in other countries. It seems to have been a popular concept in the 1970s up until a bit into the 1990s.

Edit:
For those who are thinking of buying one of the speakers mentioned above with Vifa bass, it is not a matter of if but when the edges rot away. If it hasn't been done recently, it should be redone (as I did with my parents' JPW P1):

Heybrook HB1 speaker - Repairkit foam surrounds for woofer

2 x 8

www.repairyourspeakers.com

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

I continue on the team to pick up a few different (classics?) two-way speakers with a relatively large bass driver and tweeter without a waveguide. I'm including some pictures because pictures are always fun.

Much better for the mood than endless discussions, like in this thread

Was't this aproach kind of standard in the 60's-70's? In my experience, especially the cheaper ones often had too much mids.