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Yamaha m-5000 consumes more power than a class a amp? Am I looking at this right?

antcollinet

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I'm not an EE, but I'm curious as to how much electronics manufacturers can build in some protection in regular shutdown.

I used to have VTL tube amps, and I was convinced to invest in a vari-AC to bring power on gradually in order to save tube life. Not sure it helped that much, but it was fun to turn the huge knob.
They don't really need to with solid state gear.

The main stressed component will be the input rectifier for the PSU due to the inrush curent into the capacitors. If they are selected as the correct component (designed for that application) they are rated for that inrush - pretty much as often as you like for as long as you like.

And as has been pointed out - the main wear item for solid state electronics will be the electrolytic capacitors. These typically half their life for every 10C increase in temperature. If you leave the amp on you are cooking them at high temperature 24/7. This will shorten their life far more than 2 or 3 on/off cycles per day.
 

Chr1

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I am curious about this. With these capacitors, is it the case that power cycling them does them no harm? I can see that they should be kept cool, or within their optimal operating range either by design or additional active cooling. But does power, and therefore heat cycling really have no effect on their long term life span? Seems odd to me. I was under the impression that most components nowadays can last long, as long they are kept within their operating temperature and that it was actually thermal cycling that was worse. Or is it just valve amplifiers that shouldn't be power cycled too much? Thanks.
 
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antcollinet

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I am curious about this. With these capacitors, is it the case that power cycling them does them no harm? I can see that they should be kept cool, or within their optimal operating range either by design or additional active cooling. But does power, and therefore heat cycling really have no effect on their long term life span? Seems odd to me.
Why - like all things for something to reduce life there has to be a wear out mechanism.

So for example, light bulbs and tube filaments. At switch on, they are cold and hence low resistance resulting in a high current until they get hot. This causes a wear mechanism via actual thermal expansion/contraction. But also the filament gradually gets weaker though evaporation and vibration.

With semiconductors, the devices can be damaged by exceeding a maximum temperature on the diode junction (Tjmax). Most rectifier devices I've seen have a repetitive pulse current rating (Magnitude and repeat rate on a curve) which if kept below will not result in a damaging temperature.

Electrolytic caps of the type used in power supplies are large and dont need to have very fine connections that might get hot during inrush - though I guess there may be thermal stress on them. However by far the dominant form of lifetime limit is from the (wet) electrolyte drying out. This is accelerated by heat. If they are operating they will be internally dissipating heat (in the ESR) so even if you add fan cooling they will be hotter than when switched off. So you are "consuming" their life all the time they are on. As I pointed out above - lifetime typically halved for each 10c increase in temperature.

In a former life I developed variable speed AC drives of up to 95kW. These have huge capacitor banks driven by a rectifier. Due to the size of the capacitor bank it was necessary to have inrush limiting which was a resistor shorted out by a relay after the capacitors were charged (typically only a few seconds). One of our design tests was an accelerated life On/Off cycle test. The Test unit was switched on and off as often as possible with the capacitors dischared each time. This was typically on a 30 second cycle. The test protocol required 100,000 cycles - it took 1-2 months to complete.

In the 20 odd years I was involved we never had a failure from a capacitor. If we had a test fail, most commonly it would be the inrush resistor due to being under-rated, very rarely we had the rectifier fail.
 

Chr1

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Thanks. Appreciate the explanation and good to know. Much appreciated.
Now I am concerned about how we know if the electrolyte in capacitors is diminished and that said component is therefore in need of replacement?
I generally switch things off if idle for more than about 1/2 hour, unless it's got valves....and only use the Class As on special occasions and in winter. Honest.
 

antcollinet

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Thanks. Appreciate the explanation and good to know. Much appreciated.
Now I am concerned about how we know if the electrolyte in capacitors is diminished and that said component is therefore in need of replacement?
I generally switch things off if idle for more than about 1/2 hour, unless it's got valves....and only use the Class As on special occasions and in winter. Honest.
When the amp stops working properly.

Or when a cap has bulged, split and spewed its guts :)
 

Chr1

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Thanks, but I guess now I have to ask - how do you tell if the amp is not working properly? Is it always obvious and/or audible, or can it be gradual?... Such that it's not obvious/aparent and most likely requires measurement of some kind.
Thanks again.
 

antcollinet

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Thanks, but I guess now I have to ask - how do you tell if the amp is not working properly? Is it always obvious and/or audible, or can it be gradual?... Such that it's not obvious/aparent and most likely requires measurement of some kind.
Thanks again.
If it's not obvious and/or audible then it probably isn't anything to worry about.

I'd not suggest getting into any sort of maintenance routine (eg measuring circuit performance to (try to - it'd not be easy) check if capacitors are going out of spec).

I'm currently using a 15yo AVR as my main amp. I'm certainly not intending to monitor caps in it. As long as it continues to sound good I'll continue to use it. At this point I"d sort of like it to fail, so I could justify an upgrade :)

(It gets switched on/off probably around 3 or 4 times a day. At that rate it would take me 68 years to reach 100K on/off cycles :cool: )
 

Chr1

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Very good to know. Thanks again.

Seems I have been worrying unduly.
Which is good. Better to save the planet and electricity bills, than stress over wearing out your amp unnecessarily for sure.
Cheers.
 

MaxwellsEq

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Thanks, but I guess now I have to ask - how do you tell if the amp is not working properly? Is it always obvious and/or audible, or can it be gradual?... Such that it's not obvious/aparent and most likely requires measurement of some kind.
Thanks again.
The most likely audible trend for a degrading amplifier is increasing noise. Sometimes this is very obvious as pops, crackles etc. Increasing distortion may not be audible until really significant. Both may measurable with audio test gear.
 
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