Why are headphone amplifiers still so important to audiophiles?

[EJ3]

Is this one of the reason they can't keep up with European high performance car now?

Some (perhaps most or all?) If you have ever driven in Japan, you would find the answer (at least as far as the general population of road going cars is concerned). (This goes for about 10 times for driving in Korea. While Japan actually has a pretty good car culture going, Korea has virtually none. [In recent years their manufacturers had to offer massive amounts of money and incentives to hire Japanese Honda engineers in order to build reasonably decent handling, performing cars and offer massive warranties as incentives to buyers to sell them). European governments taxed cars and motorcycles by how many (CCs, Liters [or Cubic Inches) of engine capacity they have (and in some cases cars also taxed more by having only 2 seats: hence a Porsche 911 has very minimal rear seats[and in Europe a Honda CRX {which in the USA had 2 seats & 108 HP single overhead cam engine & in Europe had 4 seats & 128 HP double overhead cam engine of the same ccs as the USA engine). This led to the manufacturers developing more horsepower per Liter by building engines that turn more RPM ([see CRX example] using stronger lighter parts, making the engines and engineering more expensive). Yes, the Japanese made CRX, in it's European setup, was quicker and faster than the USA version of the same car. However, if you look at the Vintage racing scene at Goodwood (England) (my looking has involved 2014-2019) you will see that, among the Vintage (don't know what is considered Vintage, but definitely older) cars that were not so much government regulated, that lower HP per Liter, higher torque at lower RPM (USA engined) cars (ex Shelby American Cobras, AC Cobras, Sunbeam Tigers, Ford GT 40's & others), seem to win more over the Ferrari's, Maserati's, Jaguars [both V-12 & L6], BMW's, Porsche's, etc. Just an observation, it could be the excellence of the preparation of the vehicles, who knows? There are many factors involved that we don't know. I just like quick, fast, good handling cars of all makes. I worked for the Porsche Factory and the Mercedes Factory as final inspection and I have worked on American drag racing cars, trucks, etc. I have done extensive traveling in Japan & Korea (staying in both places, months at a time, as well as the same for many other places, between the years of 2004 & 2018). I don't have any skin in this game, as it's been years since I have worked on any of these things.

 

[mkawa]

we should start a serious car history thread in other topics. this is fun, but a massive digression.

 

[EJ3]

Europeans have quite a good reason to build great handling cars: there are large sections of the Autobahn (as the German's call it, but it is the same type of roads in other countries and is better than USA Interstates at this point in time), that have no speed limits (although there is sort of a gentleman's agreement among the European manufacturers to limit speeds to 250 KPH (155.34 MPH). So building great driving, handling cars, has been in the European Automotive DNA for safety reasons since the Autobahn (Interstate system in the USA) was developed. My 1979 Pontiac Trans-Am (6.6 Liter engine [now 6.7), which now makes 473 HP and exceeds 1981 new car emission standards while getting 10.84 L/100km (21.7 MPG) at 142 KPH (88 MPH) is capable (with the correctly speed rated tires) to run 303 KMH (188 MPH) while having very normal handling with the factory stock aero package. On the other side of things: The fuel in Europe is of severely artificial high cost due to massive fuel taxation, though. This encourages making the engines more efficient, perhaps less powerful. Higher emissions standards also cause less efficiency. Weight reductions increase efficiency but decrease safety.
So all of these things need to be balanced.
Now back to the topic of:
Why are headphone amplifiers still so important to audiophiles?
Well, because, with many headphones they sound better. Since the only headphones I use are Sennheiser TR180 wireless units (I refuse to be tethered by a cord) this is not a topic that I have much to say on. But if the negative things of a headphone jack came through my wireless headphone you can bet I would be angry about it and find a way around it, which would likely mean a headphone amplifier. Just because your hearing does not allow you to hear the problems that others hear, does not mean that others do not hear the problems that you cannot. (There is an advantage in not being able to hear these problems: you do not have to spend money on a headphone amp). Hence: different strokes for different folks. In our case, folks with different hearing acuity).

 

[EJ3]

we should start a serious car history thread in other topics. this is fun, but a massive digression.

Yes, I should have either ignored or PM'ed ReaderZ, sorry.

 

[DeepFried]

what does the noise from a laptop headphone jack sound like? i have never noticed it!

Its not like every laptop has the same problems. There could be loud pops and cracks, a high noise floor (hissing white noise), a hum if there are grounding issues, or various other problems. Some laptops may sound fine, but there are certainly no guarantees.

 

[dasherzx]

just like terrible dac and amps reviewed here, there are terrible laptops? at least, that's how I look at it...
my hd800 and adx5000 sounded bad directly out of my laptop.
I don't "give much stock" to them though. Any of those $100 budget topping dac/amps reviewed here is "good enough".

 

[EJ3]

just like terrible dac and amps reviewed here, there are terrible laptops? at least, that's how I look at it...
my hd800 and adx5000 sounded bad directly out of my laptop.
I don't "give much stock" to them though. Any of those $100 budget topping dac/amps reviewed here is "good enough".

I agree with you about "good 'nuff" but there is also something to be said for longevity & reparability on a local level (things that may only be important to me personally) but I despise having to replace something because it only lasted 1 1/2 years & cannot be repaired for less than it cost. So off to the landfill it goes. (for me that is a last resort, so I typically buy things that have a history of lasting and/or can be repaired for a reasonable [if I got 10 years out of it then the full original purchase price MIGHT be reasonable). The work that I do (or have had done) on my NAD 2200's, my APT/Holman Pre-Amps and other assorted stereo gear, so far, has cost me less than their initial purchase price each time I do it (about every 10 or 20 years between checkups, updates & mods). If it is not repairable by myself or anyone I know, then USUALLY, I simply do not purchase it. That is true throughout my lifestyle, my families cars: (2012 Lexus ES350, 2007 Honda Fit, 2004 Mercedes E320, 2000 Nissan Frontier, 1979 Pontiac Trans Am, 1972 Mustang Grande), my boat: 2003 15 FT DuraCraft with 2003 Johnson 15 HP outboard, my lawnmower: 2008 Cub Cadet 23 HP Kohler with 50 inch deck). All of which I can get parts for and repair myself. If only I had Amirm's 'Green Thumb'. Perhaps after I retire.

 

[audio2design]

First of all, blind test is a wrong method. You cannot use your fallible ears+brain to prove something.

This isn't Audiogon. This is a site with professionals who have done the testing, have developed the equipment, are in some cases recognized experts. You may want to learn a bit before making posts like this. Your feelings and adhoc listening counts for nothing here. We are very much into listening tests, but we aren't arrogant enough to think we are immune to bias.

 

[ifshebreathesshesa]

in terms of fidelity me plugging in my headphones into any AMP it won't benefit when I run an Emotiva little ego that can literally power most of my cans... no amp is going to add fidelity to directly plugging it in. my AMP is Emotive BasX it isn't as detailed as some but it's also laid back as hell which I love... list of actual reasons why I use it

great build, huge nicely moving nob and a pleasure to use
enough power to power anything even without jumpers(THIS IS MAIN USE OF AMP!)
has speaker output so I don't need a separate dac or a switch I can just hook up monitors and go
auto turn off, don't need to mess with anything just come and go

all that makes it the best headphone amp for me.... I was enjoying the Zen CAN which also has a bunch of features I liked by the channel imbalance and the horrible iFi customer service I received i'm not using any of their products again... when I can get all of the above from an amp and thiers gives me horrible imbalance past 12 and their manual says it should be after 10 or it's unbalanced I have 4 gains and 30 degrees of usage for the volume knob like what???? I just started using EQ since I missed the bass boost and I prefer the control, the 3D was hit or miss, never used balanced and if couldn't power my 600 ohm headphones so overall net meh.... lots of features but a lot I didn't need vs what I actually need an amp for and useful features I always use/appreciate... also EQ is fun!

 

[Phos]

Pointing your music player of choice at a different output device than the windows default has its advantages, which will vary depending on your setup. In my case, I don't have to remember to turn CMSS-3D off because foobar is set to output to my DAC.

Is this one of the reason they can't keep up with European high performance car now?

My understanding is that car enthusiasm is drastically reduced in Japan compared to what it once was. The halo car doesn't boost sales as it once did.

 

[EJ3]

My understanding is that car enthusiasm is drastically reduced in Japan compared to what it once was. The halo car doesn't boost sales as it once did.

Perhaps they found their 'Automotive Nirvana' in some other automotive products:
【あの方も！】
グルっと見てみよう！

(maybe?)

 

[Fastfwd]

I have an X570 AORUS ELITE motherboard, and I have to admit, the headphone out sounds pretty good with headphones, and line-out pretty good with my amp and speakers. After a brief test using TH-900 and comparing to a Bifrost Multibit/Bottlehead Mainline, I'm hard pressed to tell the difference. Certainly not with low volume background music.

Anyone else have a higher end MB and are using the built in headphone out? Anyone done any serious comparisons between a good MB headphone out and decent Head-Fi type external equipment? Maybe even measurements? I always head about how much better external DACs and Amps are, but I'm starting to wonder if the MB manufacturers have caught up enough.

Note, I'm not talking about laptops here; I'm talking about a decent motherboard that the manufacture put a little effort into the audio.

I just completed a new PC build using a Gigabyte 570s Aorus Master. I eyed this board in particular for reasons including the nicer DAC and 'amp' section. The entire PC build was aiming for an 'audiophile' oriented air cooled silent machine to help lower my noise floor in my house. 3 140mm Noctua fans (NF A14), the big Noctua CPU cooler (NH D15), Fractal Design Define 7 case, and a nice Black Friday deal on a Seasonic Prime Titanium 750 watt power supply. That Gigabyte board has incredible fan control too. I can setup a profile that balances 'silent' operation with a custom ramp for the fans that keeps them generally fairly silent at around 500rpm until called upon when the temperatures start to kick up.

I was actually pretty stunned by the improvement made with this setup and the old Klipsch Promedia 2.1 speakers. Wow! They actually have soundstage and imagining that I didn't realize possible. It worked nicely to reduce my overall noise-floor in the house too.

I just got a pair of my first nice IEMs - Moondrop Aria. I actually just plugged them into my laptop for the first time (Dell XPS15 9570 - 24/48kHz max). They do respond differently to each source I've used. I got the 3.5mm dongle from Apple for my phone - super clean, but lower volume than the rest (24/48kHz). The laptop has more volume than I need, but I'm not exactly sure it's really driving these IEM's fully despite the louder volume. The desktop machine (32/192kHz?) seems to so far drive the IEM's with the most authority in terms of their playback fullness, but the volume is lower than the laptop.

My desktop output seems fairly clean. About the same as the rest of my current sources. I have to wonder how much of a factor a really nice power supply plays in a desktop system. That Seasonic Titanium was relatively pricey vs other power supplies, but it operates in a fan-less mode until it reaches a certain temperature/output and it has features that are specifically designed to reduce electrical noise. I believe those are targeted at providing the cleanest possible power to the CPU, but nevertheless. Maybe that should be considered when doing measurements for a PC build. The board alone might only be one component in the mix idk.

I'm still curious about an external DAC/Amp that might power these IEM's to their fullest and provide a path to nicer headphones like the Massdrop 6xx possibly. I'm frankly not sure myself if I will hear the difference on the IEM's. I know a set of harder to drive headphones would require it, however.

 

[audio2design]

Yes, the Japanese made CRX, in it's European setup, was quicker and faster than the USA version of the same car. However, if you look at the Vintage racing scene at Goodwood (England) (my looking has involved 2014-2019) you will see that, among the Vintage (don't know what is considered Vintage, but definitely older) cars that were not so much government regulated, that lower HP per Liter, higher torque at lower RPM (USA engined) cars (ex Shelby American Cobras, AC Cobras, Sunbeam Tigers, Ford GT 40's & others), seem to win more over the Ferrari's, Maserati's, Jaguars [both V-12 & L6], BMW's, Porsche's, etc. Just an observation, it could be the excellence of the preparation of the vehicles, who knows? There are many factors involved that we don't know. I just like quick, fast, good handling cars of all makes. I worked for the Porsche Factory and the Mercedes Factory as final inspection and I have worked on American drag racing cars, trucks, etc. I have done extensive traveling in Japan & Korea (staying in both places, months at a time, as well as the same for many other places, between the years of 2004 & 2018). I don't have any skin in this game, as it's been years since I have worked on any of these things.

With the GT40, it was handling and better reliability. With the Cobra, it was a beast, and still had more horsepower, no matter the RPM. You can always convert horsepower to torque at the wheels with gearing, but more importantly is how broad is the power band. High revving engines of old had narrow power bands, so that meant lots of shifting (time lost) compared to something with a broader power band, not to mention that means easier to drive fast for less skilled drivers which would come into play with vintage racing.

 

[Bleib]

Well, I notice no difference between Soundblaster AE-5 and DX3 Pro+ when using headphones... but obvioulsy both have amplification made for headphones

 

[Audioexcellent]

The audiophile community has stopped parroting these myths like "FLAC sounds better than MP3 (320kb/s) and "expensive cables will improve audio quality" but for some reason we are still spreading the misinformation that one must buy a headphone amp otherwise your shiny new headphone will sound like crap.

There's no way to prove with measurements that amp will sound better than listening straight out of a decent laptop. The vast majority of the audiophile community nowadays listen to modern pop and hiphop music which are compressed to death. There's no reason to tell them to buy an aditional $100-200 amp when most laptops and PC's will drive the vast majority of headphones just fine. I have done blind A/B tests with $50, 100, 200, 500 and $1000 amps and I couldn't tell them apart from my $400 dollar Windows laptop and my Macbook Air.

The queston is, when will people in the audiophile community stop putting so much stock in amps when there's no scientific way to measure their usefulness outside of pure volume?

Amazing with statement that there is no difference between FLAC and MP3 that this thread would last over 4 pages. You should have said there is no need for a website to discuss Audio Science.

 

[Bleib]

Amazing with statement that there is no difference between FLAC and MP3 that this thread would last over 4 pages. You should have said there is no need for a website to discuss Audio Science.

I don't think most people can hear the difference between a high bitrate mp3 from wave...
So I have more trouble with saying that amps are the same. Well, I've had numerous that have frequency linearity problems, a Pioneer amp which sounded metallic and lacked bas, a hefty Denon PM2000R that sounded thick and slow with no real dynamics compared to say a Vincent 233.
And often time been told that you'll be fine with say 2x25w but the dynamics peaks lack oompf.

 

[Katji]

Thread is just one illustration of the prevalence of "cuckooness" in the "audiophile community."

 

[Audioexcellent]

I don't think most people can hear the difference between a high bitrate mp3 from wave...
So I have more trouble with saying that amps are the same. Well, I've had numerous that have frequency linearity problems, a Pioneer amp which sounded metallic and lacked bas, a hefty Denon PM2000R that sounded thick and slow with no real dynamics compared to say a Vincent 233.
And often time been told that you'll be fine with say 2x25w but the dynamics peaks lack oompf.

Most people aren’t audiophiles and don’t even know much about their own sound systems so, you’re right.

 

[Bleib]

Most people aren’t audiophiles and don’t even know much about their own sound systems so, you’re right.

I'm saying not even the golden ears audiophiles will detect the difference.

 

[Audioexcellent]

I'm saying not even the golden ears audiophiles will detect the difference.

We can agree to disagree.