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Which Preamp For Sm7b?

yngzaklynch

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The SM7b is always description as needing lots of gain. It's not clear to me from previous threads exactly which preamps have been successfully used with this mic. I'm considering units in the price range of the Grace Solo 101 (non-ribbon version; would the hi-gain ribbon version be unsuitable for use with condensers?) or the True P-Solo (which appears to have a bit more gain available than the Grace). Has anyone had experience with either of these, or with other similarly priced single or dual channel preamps, and the SM7b?
 

Kouioui

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Welcome to the forum. THIS video tests the dynamic range of the Motu M2 and uses a SM7b as an example. The Motu is quite a bit less expensive than the units you're considering but is a much newer design. That same youtube channel has a comparison of a dozen lower-cost interfaces that I found quite informative.
 

Dreyfus

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60 dB gain should be good enough for an SM7B. With most affordable interfaces you are rather in the range of 45 dB to 55 dB, though. However, in case of the equivalent input noise being at least -128 dB you should probably be fine boosting the signal via software. In line preamps like the Cloudlifter, FetHead or DM1 do not necessarily improve the noise performance. But you get a few more dB of extra gain which is handy for live recordings, minimizing the need for software processing.

Julian Krause has some very informative material on his channel, indeed. ;)


 

PaulD

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Yes, you will need 60dB of clean gain, as noise free as possible, for an SM7B because it is a low output dynamic mic.

You might find these articles pertinent:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pick-preamp
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/preamp-post-mortem

The ART Pro MPA II does quite well on a budget. But if you have a small modern mixer (eg Mackie etc) then that may have a viable mic preamp in it to feed into your interface. Make sure the gain structure is sensible to minimise noise and maximise the dynamic range.
 

dfuller

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Yeah, 60dB or more with a low EIN is ideal. You have to keep in mind that vocals are almost always significantly compressed, so any noise is going to come up 6dB if not more from makeup gain. For music, I find they sound better with a preamp with some inherent distortion - something like a Warm WA73 or an ART TransX.
 

jae

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I was about to get a sE DM1 Dynamite, but I noticed there was a new product released recently, the Klark Teknik CT1. It only costs about $25 USD vs the $100 USD for the dynamite.

CT1 specs

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Dynamite specs

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jae

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Seems like the Klark product would colour the mic more than the dynamite?
 

AnalogSteph

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The specs on the CT-1 and its brethren are kinda rubbish, but then that's not unusual for a modern-day Behringer product (they bought Klark Teknik a good while ago) and not necessarily indicative of actual device performance. Still, I can't think of many more grateful mass production targets than this kind of mic booster. By the specs I'd guess it's a relatively simple circuit à la FEThead but presumably bipolar for cost reasons.
The sound coloration with the SM7B is likely down to a higher-than-usual 7 kOhm input impedance (which would be expected to result in slightly more highs and a more hefty bottom end). Should be less than with a FEThead though (33 kOhms or something if memory serves?). Not sure why the bottom end didn't seem to be affected much at all, the coupling caps couldn't be that small...?

The 25 dB maximum gain spec is a bit misleading - most people have mic inputs with 2-3 kOhms of input impedance, not 10k. I would expect closer to 13-16 dB of boost in practice. Still, that's quite enough to bring a mediocre input (say, -120 dBu) close to the physical limits.

As for those saying you need X amount of gain, well - that's neither completely right nor completely wrong. What you want is a given low EIN (like <-130 dBu shorted) and enough gain to safely bring this noise level at least 10, better 20 dB above that of the following recording chain.
Say you want to drive an ADC inside an average bus-powered USB interface, 3.3 Vpp (+3.5 dBu), dynamic range 104 dB. ADC noise is at -100.5 dBu, so you want a gain of about 50 dB.
Say you want to drive a mixer - dynamic range 110 dB, +22 dBu max. With noise at -88 dBu, you'll want over 60 dB instead.

EIN will generally degrade in variable-gain preamps when turned down substantially from max. There usually is little change in the top 10 dB, but if you intend to use a max 50-60 dB preamp to provide an extra 20 dB ahead of your regular mic pre, you may be in for a nasty surprise. In this case you would be better off using a 40 dB setting and attenuating the signal by 20 dB immediately afterwards, as silly as it sounds. Alternatively, use a purpose-built 20 dB preamp instead.

A preamp cascade is potentially useful if you're after minimum distortion. I have found typical compact mixer preamps to be happiest around the 25-30 dB mark. The lesser ones may have the 3rd harmonic come up to >0.1% or even close to 0.3% beyond the 50 dB gain mark (e.g. typical Behringer circuit), while at 20-30 dB they may hit around 0.003% even at highish levels.

The 0.02% THD at 0 dBu output (= -25 dBu input) spec of the CT-1 may not seem too impressive, but with a -59 dBV/Pa SM7B this level still amounts to about 126 dB SPL. Plenty of entry-level large diaphragm condensers make it to this kind of level at 0.5%.
 
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jae

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I ended up getting my hands on the DM1 Dynamite. Working great so far with no obvious coloration. But I find the connection wiggles a bit and is not snug on my sm7b input, which is quite annoying for what I paid. Not sure if my SM7B receiving end is a bit wider than normal because it does this with two of my cables as well. Does this happen on anyone else's SM7B as well?
 

AnalogSteph

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Looks normal to me. The DM-1's length just exacerbates the issue. I just got some cables with Yongsheng connectors, and those have a little gasket that takes up the slack (look up e.g. YS136) - no wiggle there. Can't find that for sale separetely though.

Just an idea - head to the home improvement store and look for some little O-rings that might do the job?
 

jae

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Looks normal to me. The DM-1's length just exacerbates the issue. I just got some cables with Yongsheng connectors, and those have a little gasket that takes up the slack (look up e.g. YS136) - no wiggle there. Can't find that for sale separetely though.

Just an idea - head to the home improvement store and look for some little O-rings that might do the job?

Thanks, thought maybe something was wrong with the connector, glad to know its relatively normal. I'm planning on taking utility knife to some electrical tape to bulk up around the connector a bit for now

On a side note I'm a bit underwhelmed by the SM7B but still need to spend more time with it. I was using an AT2035 condenser mic before which seemed to have a more realistic/open/neutral tone but I'm separated from it now overseas. I mainly got an SM7B because the rooms I am in now are not well treated and that was always a problem with my condenser mic. Thinking perhaps I should have tried an RE-20 instead. Although I think I probably just need more time to get used to the SM7B.
 

AnalogSteph

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Thanks, thought maybe something was wrong with the connector, glad to know its relatively normal. I'm planning on taking utility knife to some electrical tape to bulk up around the connector a bit for now
Not sure that's really the best idea, given that the jacket should make electrical contact as well.
On a side note I'm a bit underwhelmed by the SM7B but still need to spend more time with it. I was using an AT2035 condenser mic before which seemed to have a more realistic/open/neutral tone but I'm separated from it now overseas. I mainly got an SM7B because the rooms I am in now are not well treated and that was always a problem with my condenser mic. Thinking perhaps I should have tried an RE-20 instead. Although I think I probably just need more time to get used to the SM7B.
If you need a super directional mic, the SM7B arguably isn't first choice - my impression is that the element is relatively far recessed, and it's a reasonably broad cardioid. So you definitely have to get up close and personal with it for that reason alone. It's also quite neutral and unhyped up top, which with proximity effect in action in nearfield use gives it a somewhat warm tone. If you need what effectively is a broadcast / radio mic, I'd be taking a hard look at the Rode Procaster or perhaps the AT BP40 (super sensitive, quite a bit of treble peak). Taking some hints from Youtubers like Booth Junkie on improvised vocal booths may, however, also prove beneficial.

The AT2035 is one that I did like in the samples I've heard (the other mics in this series aren't really that exciting to me - the 2020 with its 16 mm capsule has a somewhat thin bottom end like 2000s era China LDCs, and the 2050 is rather generous in the treble area).

Working with dynamic mics reminds you of how depressingly good even some budget condensers are. I just got a pair of inexpensive t.bone SC140 pencil mics (a 2-pack of 16 mm true condensers for under 100€), and I would decidedly prefer the noise floor of the good one (the other is a bit of a dud, will have to return) over what my Mackie 402VLZ4's preamp (not a slouch in itself) will coax out of a Samson Q2U (600 ohm, -54 dBV/Pa). More low-frequency noise on the condenser, but much more white noise on the dynamic. The SC140 with its little 16 mm capsule is roughly on par with an old Samson CL8 LDC sporting a capsule twice the size (more low-frequency noise, less white noise, with the Samson's highs boost doing it no favors). Should be about 22-23 dB(A) then? Turn the bass up by a hair (2-3 dB) and it starts to sound a lot like the SC400 LDC, too...
(One of these more modern LDCs is much less noisy though, maybe 18 dB(A) for the SC400? I'll have to borrow something closer to SOTA one of these days - my room noise is pretty much swamping SC400 noise as-is, so I can't imagine it could get much better.)
 

Rja4000

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The SM7b is always description as needing lots of gain. It's not clear to me from previous threads exactly which preamps have been successfully used with this mic. I'm considering units in the price range of the Grace Solo 101 (non-ribbon version; would the hi-gain ribbon version be unsuitable for use with condensers?) or the True P-Solo (which appears to have a bit more gain available than the Grace). Has anyone had experience with either of these, or with other similarly priced single or dual channel preamps, and the SM7b?
I don't know what you're trying to do.

SM7b has indeed a low sensitivity, -59dBV/Pa, according to specs, which is even lower than the insensitive SM58 (-54.5dBV/Pa) but higher than the Audix OM7 (-61.5dBV/Pa).

That kind of microphone is primararily meant for (very) close miking a singer.

In those conditions, if you add a good analog preamp (like the Grace Design M101 or a small MacKie 802) to feed an interface card with symetric Mic input, you should get enough gain to saturate the interface's ADC anyway.

So what exactly is your problem/ question ?

(If you want to use the Mackie, you may want to use only the mic preamp, bypassing the mixer section. You can do that by getting the output signal out of the "Insert", by plugging a 1/4 jack half way. You then get a non balanced signal directly after the mic preamp. This is described in the manual.)
 

jae

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The SM7b is always description as needing lots of gain. It's not clear to me from previous threads exactly which preamps have been successfully used with this mic. I'm considering units in the price range of the Grace Solo 101 (non-ribbon version; would the hi-gain ribbon version be unsuitable for use with condensers?) or the True P-Solo (which appears to have a bit more gain available than the Grace). Has anyone had experience with either of these, or with other similarly priced single or dual channel preamps, and the SM7b?

I ended up getting my own MOTU M4 + DM1 dynamite since I made my suggestion to you before and it is a great affordable combo (even cheaper if you get the Motu M2) that will surpass much more expensive equipment. Speaking at normal amplitudes 4-6 inches away from the SM7B and with the Motu in the 12 o'clock position I am able to get my meters to -24 ~ -18 dB with ease and -12 ~ -6 dB at 1-2 inches away from the mic. The Motu also doubles as having one of, if not the best headphone amp in an audio interface containing microphone pres, plus you can do a lot of other things with it like recording electric instruments or line level sources, use it as a DAC/preamp for monitors etc. So its definitely a good product and specs better than a lot of the older standalone mic pres, although some of the standalone products may give you more amplification for even harder to drive mics albeit not as clean. But this combo has more than enough for the SM7B if that's your concern. And apologies for hijacking your thread but there is not much mic talk on ASR!

Working with dynamic mics reminds you of how depressingly good even some budget condensers are.

That's sort of the first impression I got as well, I admittedly had virtually zero experience with dynamic mics and pretty much exclusively only used condenser/ribbon mics before in limited application. Mostly for recording cello, contrabass, and piano practise/auditions many moons ago.

I'm not recording instruments anymore but my primary goal was a nice solution for live voice that I would just buy once and not ever think of needing to replace or upgrading later on. This isn't for professional recordings (for now), but more so my goal is to get a very natural and high-fidelity sound for voip/phone calls, for live broadcasts/streaming, online interviews, and so on. Because it's being used in a casual setting I unforunately won't be using a booth and may only have have some basic treatment. Right now on my end I am applying some minimal EQ and compression, maybe some noise reduction depending on whats going on in my (currently untreated) room. The primary sources of noise are mostly computer (which will soon be fanless) and heating/ac which I can turn off as needed. Other than that it's just environmental sounds, mouse clicks or keystrokes which I try to take care of with a noise gate.

Most people I spoke with suggested the SM7B. It also seems quite common these days in modern livestreaming/podcasting realm but I'm not sure if it's deserving of this high reverence. Everyone made it seem way more directional/rear rejecting than it actually is which was one of my reasons for getting it in the first place. I also find it doesn't really capture the lower end nuance of my voice and sounds a bit thin and maybe even conical/recessed to a certain extent, especially if I'm not eating the mic. If I'm not being too harsh its satisfactory but I definitely don't feel blown away compared to even cheaper condensers and definitely don't feel like I got what I was looking for. If I wanted another dynamic I think I could have achieved more or less the same for my voice with an SM57+windscreen and EQ (since I am EQing anyway), so I definitely feel like I overspent on the SM7B. Despite not being entirely thrilled with the sound, I think I could be content with it if I was able to maintain its sound while being a bit further away and have less obstruction.

What about something like a Sennheiser MKH416 or similar if I was able to control the rear? I could get this for an additional $150 if I returned the SM7B as they are actually cheaper here than the US. But I'm not sure how well that would fare just recording at my desk with minimal treatment.

I thought a headset could be ideal for my use (was looking at the Sennheiser HMD 26-II) but was off the table for me because I prefer using my regular 'audiophile' headphones that I use for music. I was also looking at the RODE HS1-B as an alternative to a headset that I could wear under my headphones but didn't end up looking much into it. I also looked at some or mid/higher end lavalier mics like the AT899/898 which I am still considering for other purposes, but funnily enough I rarely wear shirts at home so those aren't the best option for me. And I get up/move around and shuffle enough that it would be nice to avoid fiddling with an extra cable on my body if possible.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
 

PaulD

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Any other suggestions would be appreciated.
Sounds like you need a supercardioid mic.

I like the Sennheiser MD441 - VERY much!
http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/Sennheiser/MD-441

You might be happy with a Sure Beta57
http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/Shure/Beta-57A

But there are plenty of options, including condenser mics that have switchable patterns and you could select anything from omni to figure-8 to tame the room reflections. Or you might want to even try a short shotgun mic like a Rode NTG series.

Here are some options:
http://recordinghacks.com/microphones - do a search for supercardoid or hypercardioid polar patterns.
 

AnalogSteph

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What about something like a Sennheiser MKH416 or similar if I was able to control the rear? I could get this for an additional $150 if I returned the SM7B as they are actually cheaper here than the US. But I'm not sure how well that would fare just recording at my desk with minimal treatment.
Here in Germany, an SM7B is a 400€ microphone while an MKH416 is almost 1000€. I would be not be expecting to find the Sennheiser for close to half that anywhere. Be very careful - counterfeits of these do seem to exist.

I mean, if you can get a legit MKH416, there is little doubt that these are excellent mics, with more than enough proximity effect on tap if need be. They're being used at NPR Tiny Desk Concerts as well if memory serves. Their main deterrent is the price tag, really. Megabuck film productions or pros using them on a daily basis may not mind, but most of us hobbyists will find a mid-priced cardioid condenser and some room treatment a far more sensible option at around half the price or less.
I thought a headset could be ideal for my use (was looking at the Sennheiser HMD 26-II) but was off the table for me because I prefer using my regular 'audiophile' headphones that I use for music.
This makes me think Modmic, but I doubt that a little electret capsule would be entirely up to your standards...
 

jae

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Here in Germany, an SM7B is a 400€ microphone while an MKH416 is almost 1000€. I would be not be expecting to find the Sennheiser for close to half that anywhere. Be very careful - counterfeits of these do seem to exist

I was surprised at the price myself. I'm stuck in Australia because of covid-19, and due to being totally sold out here I had to import both the SM7B and the DM1 dynamite which ended up cost me ~$580 USD, $80 of which was postage fees. That is about $830 AUD/510€ for both. It seems the going rate here for the MKH416 is about $1050 AUD which only ends up being about $650 euro, so I'm surprised its so cheap compared to the US/EU. But those prices are from some big music retailers here so I have no reason to believe it's counterfeit.

I was actually thinking about picking up the modmic wireless for on-the-road use
 
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