What's the point?

[ZENERGiA]

Hey guys!

I have been through quite a journey. Started with an AD700X, got a FiiO e10k, also bought a HD559, then the JDS ATOM Stack, and the K712 pro.
Lately I have started using Equalizer APO and PEACE. I got into a bit of experimentation today, and used AutoEQ to reach the Harman Target of my K712 pro. It sounds fantastic, I cannot pick anything about it that is bad. I thought I would experiment with my AD700X too, which is bass shy, as all of us know. Used AutoEQ again, just to hear, that it sounds absolutely fantastic, and ACTUAL SUB BASS IS PRESENT too.

Now the question arises... what's the point of buying "better" headphones, if you can reach near perfect sound with an AD700X or a K712PRO using Equalizer APO, PEACE, and AutoEQ?

I don't really think I am missing anything here, but if yes, please let me know! I am not looking for anything in particular, don't want to change gear, I am 100% satisfied, I just don't see the point of more expensive gear, when u can reach near perfect sound with budget stuff (JDS Stack + AD700X + Equalizer APO+PEACE+AutoEQ).

Thanks for your responses!

 

[Doodski]

Hey guys!

I have been through quite a journey. Started with an AD700X, got a FiiO e10k, also bought a HD559, then the JDS ATOM Stack, and the K712 pro.
Lately I have started using Equalizer APO and PEACE. I got into a bit of experimentation today, and used AutoEQ to reach the Harman Target of my K712 pro. It sounds fantastic, I cannot pick anything about it that is bad. I thought I would experiment with my AD700X too, which is bass shy, as all of us know. Used AutoEQ again, just to hear, that it sounds absolutely fantastic, and ACTUAL SUB BASS IS PRESENT too.

Now the question arises... what's the point of buying "better" headphones, if you can reach near perfect sound with an AD700X or a K712PRO using Equalizer APO, PEACE, and AutoEQ?

I don't really think I am missing anything here, but if yes, please let me know! I am not looking for anything in particular, don't want to change gear, I am 100% satisfied, I just don't see the point of more expensive gear, when u can reach near perfect sound with budget stuff (JDS Stack + AD700X + Equalizer APO+PEACE+AutoEQ).

Thanks for your responses!

So what is the point of diminishing returns in a headphone purchase?

 

[ZENERGiA]

So what is the point of diminishing returns in a headphone purchase?

Exactly. The prices grow rapidly as you're going for "better" headphones. For example what does a Focal Elex know that my AD700X can't with an audibly transparent dac+amp+AutoEQ (headphones equalized to Harman target)?

 

[Doodski]

Exactly. The prices grow rapidly as you're going for "better" headphones. For example what does a Focal Elex know that my AD700X can't with an audibly transparent dac+amp+AutoEQ (headphones equalized to Harman target)?

I'm with you on this question because I'm wondering what the answer is too.

 

[Zensō]

I have multiple headphones EQ’d to the Harman curve that, while sounding similar, do sound different. The differences in some cases are not subtle, including differences in perceived stereo imaging width, bass and treble extension, low frequency impact, timbral qualities, etc.

All that said, if you’re satisfied with your current headphones, congratulations. You’ve won the game.

And yes, I’ve found that generally, with headphones, sound quality is not correlated with price.

 

[Zensō]

So what is the point of diminishing returns in a headphone purchase?

Personally I’d put it at around $600-700.

 

[ZENERGiA]

I have multiple headphones EQ’d to the Harman curve that, while sounding similar, do sound different. The differences in some cases are not subtle, including differences in perceived stereo imaging width, bass and treble extension, low frequency impact, timbral qualities, etc.

All that said, if you’re satisfied with your current headphones, congratulations. You’ve won the game.

Without AutoEQ (harman target) I am not (with neither fully). With AutoEQ, I am (with both). Maybe I can hear a bit more "air" with my AD700X unequalized, but with AutoEQ (harman target) everything sounds as it should to my ears. So my current understanding is the following: the sound quality of the headphones are determined by the combination of the build, the drivers used, and the earpads (to simplify it). IF the headphones respond nicely to EQ, you can actually reach the harman target (which is considered to be what the "human ear likes" according to science at least) or really close to it. Of course there are some qualities that a headhpone cannot reach with only AutoEQ (think about bass: planar drivers vs. dynamic). Also I think some other qualites are mostly determinded by the frequency response of the headphones after a certain point (think about timbre). Unequalized I hear the drums more "airy" with my AD700X...but there's no sub bass. Equalized: actual good quality sub bass is present, and a bit of air "dissapears", but tonality is more correct when it comes to the drums for example... so still, I don't really see how a much more expensive headphone is better (by a small margin, or by a lot) aside from features (for example detachable cable, but we're only looking for sound quality now).

 

[DosThou]

And yes, I’ve found that generally, with headphones, sound quality is not correlated with price.

As someone who spent thousands and settled down on unknown $30 stuff, yeah this. I wish I could EQ transducers to mold into my preference but the results always leave me wanting. Still glad that at least I've found the sounds I want now, no more getting bugged about stupidly priced headphones/IEMs outputting vocals that sound worse than my bargain bin TVs.



Harman target is not human ears like or anything like that by the way, it's just a result of experiments where they make people aka sample listen to music and pin down their averaged preferences. I for once am not a fan at all, always have crap vocals.

 

[ZENERGiA]

As someone who spent thousands and settled down on unknown $30 stuff, yeah this. I wish I could EQ transducers to mold into my preference but the results always leave me wanting. Still glad that at least I've found the sounds I want now, no more getting bugged about stupidly priced headphones/IEMs outputting vocals that sound worse than my bargain bin TVs.



Harman target is not human ears like or anything like that by the way, it's just a result of experiments where they make people aka sample listen to music and pin down their averaged preferences. I for once am not a fan at all, always have crap vocals.

Did you feel the same, when using exclusively the AutoEQ (to Harman Target for your particular headphones) exclusively at least for a few days?

 

[Zensō]

Without AutoEQ (harman target) I am not (with neither fully). With AutoEQ, I am (with both). Maybe I can hear a bit more "air" with my AD700X unequalized, but with AutoEQ (harman target) everything sounds as it should to my ears. So my current understanding is the following: the sound quality of the headphones are determined by the combination of the build, the drivers used, and the earpads (to simplify it). IF the headphones respond nicely to EQ, you can actually reach the harman target (which is considered to be what the "human ear likes" according to science at least) or really close to it. Of course there are some qualities that a headhpone cannot reach with only AutoEQ (think about bass: planar drivers vs. dynamic). Also I think some other qualites are mostly determinded by the frequency response of the headphones after a certain point (think about timbre). Unequalized I hear the drums more "airy" with my AD700X...but there's no sub bass. Equalized: actual good quality sub bass is present, and a bit of air "dissapears", but tonality is more correct when it comes to the drums for example... so still, I don't really see how a much more expensive headphone is better (by a small margin, or by a lot) aside from features (for example detachable cable, but we're only looking for sound quality now).

The point of diminishing returns is different for each person. Here’s an example. The Focal Elex is around $700, the Focal Clear is around double that. I listened to both extensively, and while I preferred the Clear, the differences were subtle enough that in no way could I justify paying double. Based upon that, you’d think the Elex would kill the sales of the Clear, yet they seem to continue to be popular. So for some, the point of diminishing returns is much higher than it is for me, and the opposite is true for others.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Because audio purists will argue that any eq or processing deteriorates signal, hence one has to pay more to get something mechanical that one can get electronically.

 

[ZENERGiA]

The point of diminishing returns is different for each person. Here’s an example. The Focal Elex is around $700, the Focal Clear is around double that. I listened to both extensively, and while I preferred the Clear, the differences were subtle enough that in no way could I justify paying double. Based upon that, you’d think the Elex would kill the sales of the Clear, yet they seem to continue to be popular. So for some, the point of diminishing returns is much higher than it is for me, and the opposite is true for others.

I understand that there is a subtle, or sometimes big difference in STOCK form. What I do not understand is the following: what are the differences between headphones after AutoEQ-ing them to the Harman Target (it sounds absolutely precise and fantastic to my ears, I am 30 years old, male - as far as I know, Amirm uses the same target in his headphone measurements). Let's take the Elex vs Clear for example. Neither of them are absolutely on spot, when it comes to the Harman Target. AutoEQ them to the Harman Target. What's the difference in the sound quality? How come one is better after AutoEQ than the other? Bigger soundstage? More spacious sound?

 

[ZENERGiA]

Because audio purists will argue that any eq or processing deteriorates signal, hence one has to pay more to get something mechanical that one can get electronically.

Exactly my thoughts. When you can do just this (with the AD700X for example):

Oh, and it's free...

 

[ZENERGiA]

By the way you can reach AutoEQ here to experiment with it (make sure to do everything correctly, or your results won't be good): GitHub - jaakkopasanen/AutoEq: Automatic headphone equalization from frequency responses

I hope it is not forbidden to post something like this here, it's totally free of charge, and this is NOT AN ADVERTISEMENT, I am just somebody who got into the rabbit hole quite a bit, but got really interested in AutoEQ, when saw the headphone measurements here, and seeing Amirm saying he reached astonishing results with parametric EQ. If someone can shed the light on my "What's the point" question though, I would be more than happy!

 

[Zensō]

What's the difference in the sound quality? How come one is better after AutoEQ than the other? Bigger soundstage? More spacious sound?

Possibly. Also other characteristics as mentioned above, including differences in punch, timbre, imaging precision, etc. I realize we’re getting into subjective territory here, but these differences can be real and easily discernible when comparing transducers.

 

[ZENERGiA]

Possibly. Also other characteristics as mentioned above, including differences in punch, timbre, imaging precision, etc. I realize we’re getting into subjective territory here, but these differences can be real when comparing transducers.

I think I'll do a little experiment when I'll have the time between my AutoEQ'd k712PRO vs. AutoEQ'd AD700X (I know blind test would be the best, but there's no such thing as blind test, when one of the headphones will slide down a bit on your ear, and the other will "cramp" your head a bit). For now, I am just enjoying music, I have not thought the AD700X could sound THIS good.

 

[Doodski]

@ZENERGiA we have this page here at ASR for EQ and PEQ.

 

[Zensō]

For now, I am just enjoying music, I have not thought the AD700X could sound THIS good.

That’s the most important thing. Enjoy!

 

[ZENERGiA]

@ZENERGiA we have this page here at ASR for EQ and PEQ.

Oh, I did not know this thread existed, I just got into ASR about one year or half a year ago, and realised science is the way to go when it comes to sound quality, so after a while, I decided, to register on the forum! Thanks, I'll probably lurk around there sometimes! ^^

 

[FrantzM]

Those are most interesting questions.

The best headphones I have heard so far, HiFiman HE6
The second best headphones I think I have , Stax SR 007
The headphones I use most , HiFiMan HE560
And the headphones I use to travel and for work Sony WH MX1000 2
And one I got for experimentation but rarely/never use, a Koss ESP9

Aside from the Koss which I don't use... will likely sell it on eBay one of these days... They sound pretty similar once Eq'd... The HE6 retain its character and present the music with a certain authority the others don't, all across the frequency spectrum but in the bass in particular. The Stax seems to have better mid and treble but it could be subjective, The HE560 is my favorite because I can drive it with the JDS Atom without fuss (The Stax requires its own SS amp...) and the HE6 although drive-able with the Atom requires more say a 30/w/Ch @ 8 Ohms amplifier IME...
The biggest surprise is how close the Sony MX1000 is to the others even with the Bluetooth, the ANC once EQ is applied. I need the equivalent of APO EQ for my IOS devices so far no luck, I use Boom which is an EQ but it messes too much with the Spotify GUI interface and organization, thus I will not retain it. Still looking for a proper EQ with variable Q and Frequency steps ...
I will never buy an expensive headphones after having discovered, thank to the people here, EQ.

My HE560 is really old and after changes of cables, earpads and frames, I think I will donate it and get a new everyday headphone ... I am waiting for serious reviews of the HE-6Se which is said to be easier to drive than the original HE6 or perhaps the Focal Clear or ....??

All this to ask: What's the threshold beyond which you are buying Luxury with no objective benefits? ... $700?
same question, I guess as the OP
For the record, I have ordered sight unseen, the Apple Airpad Max ... It will replace the Sony which is old, beat and ugly but still working.

Peace