VPI Classic

[Angsty]

I know there are a lot of vinyl haters on ASR, so I'm not really directing this thread to them!

I'm curious about the VPI Classic series and ASR users' experience with them. I have a VPI Traveler today and I'm thinking about an upgrade. Given that vinyl is a flawed medium in itself, what are the advantages in using the VPI Classic?

I'm a bit skeptical that the Classic will sound "better" than the Traveler, but I'm also curious about what people love about the Classic that keeps it returning to production whereas the Traveler was discontinued. I'm not interested in the VPI Prime or the Technics SL-1200G/GR as alternatives, just wanting to hear more about the Classic than has been posted to date.

 

[DVDdoug]

I've NEVER heard a difference caused by the turntable itself unless it had an obvious defect. I've heard rumble (or other mechanical noise) picked-up by the cartridge with a cheap record player, and I've heard wow or other speed problems when a turntable had a worn belt or worn rubber drive wheel.

Yeah... I'm a "vinyl hater"... I always hated the "snap", "crackle", and "pop". I could live with the frequency response variations and the occasional distortion but I'm very happy that we don't have to!

 

[sergeauckland]

I;m not a vinyl hater, I play vinyl quite often, albeit rather less than digital audio.
However, I'm totally with DVDdoug above, in that I've never heard differences between turntables (or arms!). As long as they go round at the right speed, and with minimal wow & flutter, any difference are totally to do with the cartridge, and in the case of MMs, how they're loaded. MCs are far more load tolerant, so even less differences there. I'm assuming that any turntable will be sensibly mounted, not sitting on a subwoofer....

If you want a new turntable because it looks nicer, or is easier to use, or the arm will take a wider range of cartridges, then fine, just don't expect a difference in sound.

S.

 

[MAB]

I know there are a lot of vinyl haters on ASR, so I'm not really directing this thread to them!

I'm curious about the VPI Classic series and ASR users' experience with them. I have a VPI Traveler today and I'm thinking about an upgrade. Given that vinyl is a flawed medium in itself, what are the advantages in using the VPI Classic?

I'm a bit skeptical that the Classic will sound "better" than the Traveler, but I'm also curious about what people love about the Classic that keeps it returning to production whereas the Traveler was discontinued. I'm not interested in the VPI Prime or the Technics SL-1200G/GR as alternatives, just wanting to hear more about the Classic than has been posted to date.

The deck has almost zero impact on the sound.
The tonearm can cause a change in sound due to interaction of the effective mass with the compliance of the cartridge. Like if you have an extremely low or high-compliance cartridge, but you likely do not have that problem.
You already paid a ton of money for the traveler which looks like a very competent deck... If you want to waste a ton more money on a Classic, you will get nothing except another pretty turntable.

I am a vinyl fan, in so far as I still listen to my old records on an old turntable. I just don't want you to believe that VPI's more expensive decks are any better than their entry level.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I know there are a lot of vinyl haters on ASR, so I'm not really directing this thread to them!

I'm curious about the VPI Classic series and ASR users' experience with them. I have a VPI Traveler today and I'm thinking about an upgrade. Given that vinyl is a flawed medium in itself, what are the advantages in using the VPI Classic?

I'm a bit skeptical that the Classic will sound "better" than the Traveler, but I'm also curious about what people love about the Classic that keeps it returning to production whereas the Traveler was discontinued. I'm not interested in the VPI Prime or the Technics SL-1200G/GR as alternatives, just wanting to hear more about the Classic than has been posted to date.

Not a vinyl hater.

I agree with the others who have said that modern properly functioning turntables have minimal to zero impact on sound quality. Also as mentioned, tonearms can affect the sound quality especially if your arm and cartridge are incompatible.

If you are itching to improve your vinyl playback look at your cartridge. Like speakers, cartridges are an area where the greatest delta is found.

Of course some turntables are prettier than others and changing out one for another for aesthetic reasons is perfectly reasonable in my mind.

 

[Waxx]

The best thing to go better is use a direct drive, and then there is only one name: Technics. The SL1500C is great and only 1K€, the SL1200G is also, with slightly better for the much more expensive GR. The best ever for me are the Technics SL1000R, only equalled by the old EMT broadcast tables (but those are long out of production and way to expensive second hand). Will the SL1000R make a big difference? I don't think it will, it's the last percentage, but a very expensive one... The 1500C aleady is better than all non technics i think. The timing of the motor is very stable and precise, and the arm, in the past the weak point of technics, is a lot better and up to par with the rest of the field and the platter is mass-damped like all technics and relative immune for nomal touch sounds or feedback.

If you want to stay belt drive, you got a good one, the more expensive models won't change much on that. They will just look a bit more fancy. VPI is one of the better brands arround, because a lot of belt drivers are overpriced crap.

I myself, after having many turntables settled on an original 1975 Technics SL1500 MKI in mint state, and it is the known technics quality. I bought it for 200€, did some maintenance, added the very good AT-VM95EB cell to it and took time to calibrate it right, and i'm done. I don't think i need to upgrade anymore. Even after i heared a lot of the known classics and way more expensive turntables. The newer except the SL1200 MK7 are the same kind of quality and precision.

 

[Angsty]

I try to follow @Frank Dernie ’s posts to better understand his experience with turntable design; his Goldmund Reference is far beyond anything I’d ever try to get. I get the issues with isolation of any turntable, but I do wonder if a 20 lb platter helps or if it’s just hype.

I read Paul Miller’s turntable reviews and measurements in HiFi News to get a perspective on which measurements matter most. His principal foci are speed consistency / wow & flutter, rumble and tonearm resonance. Tonearm resonance is the one that captures my attention, but I’m unclear where it ranks in the priorities of sonic characteristics.

 

[Steven Holt]

skeptical that the Classic will sound "better" than the Traveler

I'm not quite sure that one TT will sound better that another above a certain price point, say $500. But what I can tell you is that the best improvement in sound quality will come from the cartridge and the phono preamp. Please remember, the record itself is the limiting factor here. You will never get a poor pressing to sound good, no matter what you have.

 

[Angsty]

I'm not quite sure that one TT will sound better that another above a certain price point, say $500. But what I can tell you is that the best improvement in sound quality will come from the cartridge and the phono preamp. Please remember, the record itself is the limiting factor here. You will never get a poor pressing to sound good, no matter what you have.

I agree on the point about the phonostage and the cartridge. I have seen significant improvements in both over the past couple of upgrade cycles. With a Bryston phono and a Hana SL cartridge, it feels like the next area of emphasis is in the tonearm and turntable.

It's hard for me to have a scientific basis for making these changes without proper measuring equipment and testing expertise. Again, I've been relying on testing experts like Paul Miller as a guide. His measured tonearm resonance of the Classic is not stellar but I also don't have a baseline for my Traveler, either. It's also quite possible that some of the measured results may not always correlate to a specific "sound signature" of a device.

The ~200 Hz under-damped resonance of the tonearm could suggest warmth in the reproduction, but I have not seen any description of the Classic (with metal tonearms) as being "warm". Perhaps a more informed observer could interpret how this resonance could have an acoustic impact.

 

[MoreWatts]

Other people see vinyl for what it is; an older and inferior medium that costs a lot of money and exhibits a lot of physical wear. They don't like it, but that doesn't mean that they hate it. It simply means that they don't support fanaticism based on illogical and unscientific ideas.

Many of us long time music fans are basically stuck with 1500 slabs of toxic waste, collected over 50 years. Discogs tells me my vinyl is a collection of $4 albums, each offered by 40 sellers, so yeah, it'll sell/s. They are difficult to hide in any decor space. I'm in the process of reviving my vinyl rig, just to make use of it. There is some jazz I love that is not on streaming services and is rare/unavailable on CD, but my brain has so far fought off the vinyl rip time-suck. I'm sure there are plenty of ASR devotees in similar situations. Boomer inheritors are a generation becoming well-versed in vinyl disposal.

 

[MAB]

I agree on the point about the phonostage and the cartridge. I have seen significant improvements in both over the past couple of upgrade cycles. With a Bryston phono and a Hana SL cartridge, it feels like the next area of emphasis is in the tonearm and turntable. It's hard to have a scientific basis for making these changes without proper measuring equipment and testing expertise. Again, I've been relying on testing experts like Paul Miller as a guide. His measured tonearm resonance of the Classic is not stellar but I also don't have a baseline for my Traveler, either.

View attachment 249961

Do you have a reference for that graph? The website?
Tonearm resonance is mostly a function of the compliance of the cartridge's suspension and the effective mass of the arm.
I'm intrigued about what he is saying about these resonances.

The effective mass of the tonearm will tell you what range of cartridge compliances is within acceptable limits for the resulting resonance frequency of the tonearm/cartridge combo. Looks like VPI arms are all around 10 gram effective mass.

Cartridge Resonance Evaluator - Vinyl Engine

www.vinylengine.com

I would wager that adding mass to the headshell of your Traveler will cause a bigger change in sound than swapping out decks. I don't know if lowering the resonance frequency of your arm/cartridge is good or bad, just saying it will be subtly noticeable. I really don't think you can hear the difference between the Traveler or Classic decks. But please forward me the site so I can read what Miller is talking about.

 

[Angsty]

Many of us long time music fans are basically stuck with 1500 slabs of toxic waste, collected over 50 years. Discogs tells me my vinyl is a collection of $4 albums, each offered by 40 sellers, so yeah, it'll sell/s. They are difficult to hide in any decor space. I'm in the process of reviving my vinyl rig, just to make use of it. There is some jazz I love that is not on streaming services and is rare/unavailable on CD, but my brain has so far fought off the vinyl rip time-suck. I'm sure there are plenty of ASR devotees in similar situations. Boomer inheritors are a generation becoming well-versed in vinyl disposal.

Boomer inheritance is exactly how I came into vinyl. My father passed and I later inherited his vinyl collection when my mother downsized. I wanted a modern table to screen which records I would keep because his old Garrard mass-market changer was noisy, finicky and slow. That's what led me to the Traveler.

 

[Chrispy]

Just curious why you didn't post this in the vinyl "safe" space https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ntables-phono-amplifier-cartridges-review.48/

You have a very nice record player, can't imagine a different one will make a difference as much as a cartridge....

 

[MAB]

Just curious why you didn't post this in the vinyl "safe" space https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ntables-phono-amplifier-cartridges-review.48/

You have a very nice record player, can't imagine a different one will make a difference as much as a cartridge....

And you have a nice cartridge too, that is well matched to the effective mass of your tonearm. So hard to imagine what you would do to improve sound, just spend lots more money with no improvement.

 

[Angsty]

Do you have a reference for that graph? The website?

Paul Miller does turntable reviews and measurements for HiFi News. Because this is an old review, these measurements are archived on milleraudioresearch.com . Later reviews have measurements in the online articles on hifinews.com.

Paul does not generally make sonic attributions for his measurements. The tonearm measurements are primarily the mechanical bending, harmonic and twisting modes of resonance. He also measures friction and play in the bearing.

Here is another lab test he has done: https://www.hifinews.com/content/vpi-prime-21-belt-driven-turntable-lab-report

 

[Angsty]

Just curious why you didn't post this in the vinyl "safe" space https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ntables-phono-amplifier-cartridges-review.48/

You have a very nice record player, can't imagine a different one will make a difference as much as a cartridge....

I didn't post it there because I simply missed it! I was looking for the turntable forum, but overlooked the obvious. I have now asked the admin for help on this.

 

[Timcognito]

Used to be an LP guy, had to, nothing else but tape (few music selections on tape). VPI is very good brand that stands the the test of time. Maybe look for a used upgraded VPI HW-19 or Scout with nice arm and cart on US Audio Mart to save some dough. With TT's new is not necessarily better. IMO

 

[Angsty]

Used to be an LP guy, had to, nothing else but tape (few music selections on tape). VPI is very good brand that stands the the test of time. Maybe look for a used upgraded VPI HW-19 or Scout with nice arm and cart on US Audio Mart to save some dough. With TT's new is not necessarily better. IMO

Agreed. I've been looking at gently used Classics versus a new one. There is a fairly constant supply of Classics on the used market. I'm even less convinced of the benefits of going from the Traveler to the Scout models than to the Classic models.

 

[Timcognito]

I guess the idea of spending $4k on turntable is wacky to me when getting a used rig will give you a good bump in sound with a better arm and cartridge for a quarter or half the money. Didn't realize the the Classic was that expensive. There are lots of "enthusiasts" constantly dumping their TT's for "better" gear when there is not that much improvement in sound. Save a lot of money and spend it on music.

 

[Godataloss]

I went from a VPI HW 19 to one of the custom "Prime" Scouts Upscale Audio was selling (second owner). The arm and motor are better and it looks cool. I sold 2 HW 19's that I've restored to purchase the Scout. VPI's are easy to make money on if you buy them right. If Upscale still has the Prime 21 for $2500 it is an excellent deal with the stainless motor and 12 inch platter. Sound differences among all of these are negligible if set up correctly.