• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

The Yamaha NS10 Story

notsodeadlizard

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2023
Messages
403
Likes
362
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,213
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
That nasty peak near 1.5kHz must have simulated cheap car speakers nicely. To go even farther down the lo-fi hole you have to buy Horrortones :) On the bright side they were one of the few sealed itty-bitty speakers.
 

Multicore

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 6, 2021
Messages
1,786
Likes
1,957
Perhaps this paragraph will prompt some discussion.
The Newells/Holland paper was based on acoustic measurements of 38 different nearfield monitors, carried out in the UK's premier research anechoic chamber at Southampton University. The acoustic measurements taken included frequency response, harmonic distortion and time-domain response (how quickly a monitor starts and stops in response to an input). At the end of the exercise it's no exaggeration to say that one monitor stood out like the proverbial sore cliché: the NS10. While its frequency response wasn't particularly flat, and its low-frequency bandwidth was restricted in comparison to many others, in terms of time-domain and distortion performance it was outstanding.
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,213
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
Perhaps this paragraph will prompt some discussion.
Yes, as I said it was sealed. It had much better low frequency group delay than most competitors.

To this day most tiny speakers are ported, simply because the tiny woofer struggles with bass.
 

mhardy6647

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
11,407
Likes
24,762
Well, there's the LS3/5A fine family of nearfield monitors. ;)

On topic: I suspect these Lego NS-10 sound better than das Ding an sich. :cool:

nxc962r0juui.png


Oh, and you've gotta admit -- the NS-10(M) is a cool lookin' little loudspeaker.

5wVCwhPScNP8pRiQpcDmLh-1200-80.jpg
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,213
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
Well, there's the LS3/5A fine family of nearfield monitors. ;)

On topic: I suspect these Lego NS-10 sound better than das Ding an sich. :cool:

nxc962r0juui.png


Oh, and you've gotta admit -- the NS-10(M) is a cool lookin' little loudspeaker.

5wVCwhPScNP8pRiQpcDmLh-1200-80.jpg
Might be fine if you notch that peak at 1.5kHz and give it a subwoofer.
 

test1223

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
512
Likes
522
The 1.5kHz peak combined with higher beaming (less reflections) and no bass can actually be useful. It is like a magnifying glass which boosts the most important frequency range. You don't have to crank up the volume to hear all the details in this frequencies and if you do you might easier find problems.

Mixing with the purpose that it should sound good on these is climbing down the LoFi leader. Even if it would have worked it would only benefit the ones which aren't interested in good sound anyway. So in general a stupid idea.
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,213
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
The 1.5kHz peak combined with higher beaming (less reflections) and no bass can actually be useful. It is like a magnifying glass which boosts the most important frequency range. You don't have to cank up the volume to hear all the details in this frequencies and if you do you might easier find problems.

Mixing with the purpose that it should sound good on these is climbing down the LoFi leader. Even if it would have worked it would only benefit the ones which aren't interested in good sound anyway. So in general a stupid idea.
If you make pop stuff and know people will be listening on nasty systems, it seems like a good idea to know how bad it gets.
 
OP
N

notsodeadlizard

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2023
Messages
403
Likes
362
Perhaps this paragraph will prompt some discussion.
There is not much to discuss here. Except perhaps for the approach to testing: if a product is being tested, it is necessary to test not one sample, but several (statisticians can tell something about representative samples). However, it doesn't matter. All the same, audio technology is made not for exceptionally strict compliance with technical requirements, but also to satisfy human perception. And these are slightly different tasks.
 

Multicore

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 6, 2021
Messages
1,786
Likes
1,957
If you make pop stuff and know people will be listening on nasty systems, it seems like a good idea to know how bad it gets.
Yes, that makes sense but it still don't really answer the question: Why specifically NS10? I'd be surprised to find that it better demonstrates how bad it gets than other speakers.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,903
Likes
16,918
Floyd Toole has written several times about the Yamaha NS-10 (even in his book) so actually everything meaningful about it has already been written and discussed here, below are few of his posts:

The NS1000 was an exceptional loudspeaker at the time, and not embarrassing even now. See Figure 18.3. The only problem was that they were designed for a flat sound power target, so they were slightly bass shy - turn up the bass and/or turn down the treble for better balance. The NS-10 was also designed for flat sound power, and in a two-way that was most regrettable - although inexplicably many recording engineers got sucked into what can only be described as a "fashion". Truthfully it was an Auratone with more bass. The designer visited me at the NRCC and went away swearing never to do it again. He didn't, and subsequent Yamaha monitors were flat on axis. Section 12.5.1 in the 3rd edition discusses this and shows measurements.

Hi, I know the document and I know the authors. There is much to say about it, including noting the comment early on that the Yamaha NS-10M "appeared to have a sound character that mixing personnel had been looking for" - in other words the speaker was selected for being a pleasing equalizer for pop/rock music, not a neutral revealer of recorded "truths". There is the admission later on that the obvious mid frequency excess will be reflected in recordings, saying "the resultant balance of low- vs mid-frequencies will probably be correctable using equalisation should that be deemed necessary during the mastering process". This is a classic "kick-the-can-down-the-road" attitude. They assume that mastering engineers will be using neutral monitors and therefore might hear the coloration and can fix it.

This is precisely what professional recording engineers should not be doing - in my opinion . . .

It is important to understand that loudspeaker performance at low frequencies is minimum-phase behavior. That is, its time domain performance is predictable from its amplitude response. Apply ANY EQ and the time domain behavior changes - are there any control room systems that do not have some EQ?. Woofer performance is predictable from contemporary mathematical modeling of transducer/enclosure interaction. Of course, superimposed on speaker behavior are the medium-to-high-Q room resonances. Listening at about 1 m over the top of a console work surface is one thing. Listening a 2 to 3 m in a normally-reflective domestic space is another. All their measurements were on axis only; no off axis data that might have added insights. Anechoic chambers are not anechoic at low frequencies, and even attempts at corrective EQ have limitations (I know because I have "calibrated" chambers for use below cutoff frequency).

Section 12.5.1 "Old-School Monitoring" in the 3rd edition of my book shows measurements on several relevant loudspeakers, showing clearly that the Pro version of the NS-10 was modified to do an even better job of imitating "ye olde original crappy speaker" the Auratone 5C, an inexpensive 5-inch full range paper-cone speaker that was widely used in CRT television sets of the period.

BTW, the designer of the NS-10M and the NS-1000M visited me at my NRC lab in Canada to experience the measurement process and double-blind listening tests. They left with many physical measurements and photographs intending to duplicate some of the facility and processes. The original speakers were designed to exhibit flat sound power (believed, incorrectly, to be what listeners heard in the far field), which my measurements showed they did extremely well. The problem was that the two-way NS-10 ended up with a very non-flat on-axis response, but the three-way NS-1000M, with more uniform directivity with frequency, was an exemplary loudspeaker at the time (1974) - see Figure 18.3 (e).

I could go on, but fortunately I don't need to because the recording industry has done it for me; it has moved on. The fad has substantially passed, and the current norms for monitor loudspeakers (including Yamahas) are not different from the current objectives for neutral sounding domestic entertainment loudspeakers, which is as it should be.

I don't wish to argue about "why" the NS10M became popular - I have heard and read several versions, including the one you refer to - and one more from someone who said he was in a position to know, saying that many were given away free to recording engineers. Personally I have no insight except that I have measured and heard the products, and spent time with the designers, who also went through a double-blind evaluation of their own products. They took notes. The products are what they are and the chips will fall where they may.

According to the designer, the NS10M was designed to be used by consumers in relatively reflective rooms, placed close to a wall for bass reinforcement and auditioned at a large distance at which the radiated sound power was assumed to be the dominant factor. It was not designed to be a near-field monitor, placed on the meter bridge in the open (no bass reinforcement) and auditioned at a distance of about 3 ft where the direct sound (on-axis response modified by a console reflection) would be the dominant factor. These are almost diametrically opposite uses.

At the time the Auratone 5C was in widespread use as a loudspeaker representing what many consumers were listening to - mixing for the audience was the notion. It was a simple small cone speaker in widespread use in TVs and elsewhere installed in a small box - absolutely nothing special. Whatever other arguments are put forward, it is hard to ignore the fact that the professional version of the NS10M measured and sounded remarkably like the Auratone, but with more extended bass and much better production quality control. The Auratones were highly variable. See the attached curves, which include a curve of a more recent Yamaha monitor (Figure 12.11 from the 3rd edition - there are more to be seen there). Yamaha clearly walked away from a market for their NS10M Pro and its seeming ability to reveal audible secrets. So, equalize the new one to have the frequency response of the old one when needed - too logical?

There is another school of thought, supported by work and writings of Philip Newell, that claims the advantage to be uncommonly "tight" bass. To all of these perspectives I would add one thought - why not use equalization? In fact, these days does anyone NOT equalize a monitor loudspeaker? Simply start with a broadband, neutral monitor and if one wishes to focus on specific bands of frequencies during a mix dial/switch in the appropriate equalization. Loudspeaker transducers are minimum phase devices so the time-domain performance follows the amplitude-domain (anechoic frequency response) curve. At bass frequencies there is not even a consideration of directivity to be concerned about - EQ is king. Tight bass, loose bass, fat bass, thin bass, all are possible with EQ. In my discussions of such things with several pros I got the kinds of responses typical of many consumers - they really didn't understand how loudspeakers work, but they know what they hear and they have "ideas".
 
OP
N

notsodeadlizard

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2023
Messages
403
Likes
362
Yes, that makes sense but it still don't really answer the question: Why specifically NS10? I'd be surprised to find that it better demonstrates how bad it gets than other speakers.
The article consists of three parts, and, in fact, it is all about the search for an answer to this question.
Well, these speakers aren't that bad.
 

test1223

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
512
Likes
522
If you make pop stuff and know people will be listening on nasty systems, it seems like a good idea to know how bad it gets.
I have a different view here.
First: I don't think you can estimate how ugly it can get since there are millions of differently wrong sounding devices out there.

Second: the ones which aren't interested in good sound even hear music on old smart phones which is very LoFi. As a hifi guy it seems unbelievable but a lot of people who hear songs over such awful devices don't care. The amount of dynamic compression and potential issues with deep bass are important for LoFi mixing. Even if it would be possible to optimize a mix for the majority of LoFi devices it is a waste of time since these people don't hear a song for its "sound" but for its "music". In addition the ones which care for HiFi might notice the slightly less good sound.
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,213
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
Yes, that makes sense but it still don't really answer the question: Why specifically NS10? I'd be surprised to find that it better demonstrates how bad it gets than other speakers.
Newell and Holland gushed about the time-domain response being good. That may very well be, and maybe that was a selling point; although I find a lot of that book to be very questionable.
 

GaryH

Major Contributor
Joined
May 12, 2021
Messages
1,351
Likes
1,861
some misguided recording engineers monitor and tweak their recordings through low-fidelity loudspeakers thinking that this represents what the average consumer will hear. Since loudspeakers can be mediocre in an infinite number of ways, this practice only guarantees that quality of the recording will be compromised when heard through good loudspeakers [1]. This is very counterproductive if we want to improve the quality and consistency of audio recording and reproduction.
Dr Sean Olive
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,213
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
I am not quite sure what if anything one may infer from this late 1970s/early 80s ad for the NS-10m, but it certainly was memorable. :)

View attachment 273610

source: https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/I...IDX/IDX/70s/High-Fidelity-1979-06-IDX-100.pdf
Yeah, I'm not sure where they were going with that ad. I have read that the Japanese as a rule prefer tight, lean bass to the fuller bass we might like. Not sure how much to believe generalizations like that, though.
 

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
3,721
Likes
4,820
Location
Germany
Yeah, I'm not sure where they were going with that ad. I have read that the Japanese as a rule prefer tight, lean bass to the fuller bass we might like. Not sure how much to believe generalizations like that, though.

I think leaner bass for mixing is very usefull, to much bass masks all the midrange. So better have less, and add it later to taste.
 
Top Bottom