The online coffee/espresso culture mirrors the subjectivist audio crowd.

[Timcognito]

Just one cup allowed before posting on ASR. Sorry coffee is a requirement not a hobby for me.

 

[r042wal]

I am amazed at the lineups in the morning at Tim Hortons and Starbucks. The price of a cup of coffee from these retailers is absurd. If people only realized what this costs them over a year, they could be brewing themselves a pretty decent cup or coffee or espresso at home. People just have to realize that a drip filter machine from Walmart just isn't going to cut it, especially if the water doesn't get hot enough to extract the flavors from the grind.

 

[wgb113]

Like anything else you can get as crazy as you’d wish with coffee. Fresh beans + right grind + right temp gets me all I need. I ended up with two separate Breville units - a grinder and their entry-level espresso machine. Dialing in the grind between different coffees can be frustrating but it makes a good enough latte for me.

 

[Freeway]

I meant to say, there is very little science involved in espresso, it seems. People constantly repeat things they read, that flat burrs are better suited for light roasts, and that conical burrs will get a velvety mouthfeel, etc., but all with very little to no substance to back it up.

But similar to audio, if you are happy with the output, who gives a shit.

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[Gruesome]

Interesting thread. I agree with the OP: there is a lot of 'discussion' that contributes very little to better espresso.

Regarding grinders: A consistent grind is actually very important. The particle size mixture coming out of blade grinders can make it impossible to dial in reproducible results, due to large variations in back pressure for small variations in tamping. But I don't think you need to spend hundreds on a separate grinder.

Regarding the espresso machine: After experimenting, including with a fully manual espresso maker (Flair), I bought a fully automatic DeLonghi Magnifica (the older two boiler version), and I'm very happy with the espresso it makes. I think as long as the machine provides consistent water temperature and pressure, one should be able to achieve reproducible results. I know that some of the multi-thousand dollar machines make good espresso as well, but I don't think it's necessary to spend that much. When I was using the Flair I spent some time measuring the amounts of coffee and water and extracted espresso; in comparison the DeLonghi was much easier to dial in to my preference.
In a sense, espresso makers seem similar to audio amplifiers: Their job is mostly to be consistent and not screw it up.

Coffee dependent variables: I'm also roasting my own coffee, and find that for the darker (but not as dark as Starbucks espresso roast...) roasts I prefer, the exact origin of the beans seems not as important as paying close attention to a consistent roast profile (temperature vs time). At least as long as the beans are not too high in acidity and have reasonable body. I'd say I have tried about twenty different beans over the last few years.

Back to audio-philistry: At least for the description of beans, the language seems to be a bit better defined than in audio, but is also full of codewords (like 'brightness' for acidity).

 

[majingotan]

Like everyone mentions here, coffee doesn't get any better than this:

decent hand grinder (any cheap conical burr hand grinder) + light roast gesha beans from Ecuador or Panama + Aeropress = incredibly flavorful, bright and clear mouthwatering coffee experience! Brewing equipment total cost minus the beans of course = 70 USD, just total bang for the buck!

 

[JRS]

I'm old school:
View attachment 285822

Not the real thing but a damn fine base for Americano or lattes. Takes 3 minutes, no fuss, no muss.

 

[JRS]

View attachment 285928
Like everyone mentions here, coffee doesn't get any better than this:

decent hand grinder (any cheap conical burr hand grinder) + light roast gesha beans from Ecuador or Panama + Aeropress = incredibly flavorful, bright and clear mouthwatering coffee experience! Brewing equipment total cost minus the beans of course = 70 USD, just total bang for the buck!

Spoiler: a blind test using cheapo grinders vs the very best could not be discerned by acclaimed espresso afficianados. But like a Krell amp, my 12 lb stainless steel Rocky Rancillo looks great on the counter, even if the coffee is no better.

2 rules of thumb: freshly roasted/ground and well sourced beans ++consistent methodology--and no you don't need a milligram scale. A thermometer OTOH is indispensable in dialing it in.

 

[Axo1989]

It's no surprise that coffee culture spans some cross section of the population—from pragmatic to poetic—as audio does. Both employ physics (although coffee depends as much on chemistry) and both are enjoyed by the senses as well as the mind.

I did the stove-top mokka pot for a while, then the Nespresso thing. Enjoyed both. But a Nespresso capsule is a meagre 7 grams of coffee, and running three into a small cup doesn't really make a decent doppio espresso. A friend's office had a Lelit Mara and I was taken by the aesthetics/haptics, so bought one (mid pandemic, working at home was a factor) along with the original Niche grinder (I like the workflow) and learned how to make acceptable espresso. I'm not super fussy, but there's a baseline.

 

[Keith_W]

It's no surprise that coffee culture spans some cross section of the population—from pragmatic to poetic—as audio does. Both employ physics (although coffee depends as much on chemistry) and both are enjoyed by the senses as well as the mind.

Who says audio does not involve chemistry? Get some friends over for a listen and within an hour they are all blind drunk.

 

[theREALdotnet]

I used to dedicate a quarter of my kitchen bench space to espresso making, roasted my own beans and loved it. In the end it was just too much work for the 4-5 shots per day between my wife and me (I wasted more shots than I drank). These days I buy roasted beans from good nearby roasters (or CoffeeSnobs in Melbourne), grind them with a simple Breville conical burr grinder at the finest setting and just pour it over in the mug. Simple and delicious.

 

[CDMC]

Among the best purchases I made were 2 Eureka grinders (one for regular and one for decaf) and a Profitec Pro 300. Now my wife and I enjoy great espresso drinks whenever we want for less than $1 each, instead of driving, waiting and paying $5+ each.

We do not roast our own beans. We buy from smaller roasters that charge reasonable prices.

 

[antcollinet]

View attachment 285928
Like everyone mentions here, coffee doesn't get any better than this:

decent hand grinder (any cheap conical burr hand grinder) + light roast gesha beans from Ecuador or Panama + Aeropress = incredibly flavorful, bright and clear mouthwatering coffee experience! Brewing equipment total cost minus the beans of course = 70 USD, just total bang for the buck!

But hell: Hand grinders are hard work. Not for me - I'm too lazy.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I am one of those coffee persons, I find it fun to make a good cup of coffee, every morning. I don't drink it during the day. Just that double espresso shot in the morning, and I'm done.

Science is involved into making espresso and there is objectivity in this espresso/coffee hobby, I don't know however, an ASR-equivalent coffee forum, but some dabble into the Science of making coffee. Espresso, requires consistency: Consistent water temperature, consistent pressure, Consistent timing, Consistent brew size/weight and the most elusive of all: consistent coffee beans characteristics, i-e... Type of grains, chemical compositions, roast type , etc. This, the coffee is the least consistent. These are very difficult to measure objectively aside from size , roast and weight.
Let's put aside the coffee beans parameters.. If we are to concentrate on what we can actually control: Temperature, pressure, weight and density of the grind. There are not on the market many (no?) <$1000.oo espresso machines that manage these parameter's simultaneously and well... For example, the ideal temperature for espresso brewing needs to remain constant, while passing through the ground beans... This requires some sophisticated methods and devices, those are not cheap. Same with water, again, it needs to be regulated both in pressure and in flow.; not easy but it is done, at a cost. To make the matter more complicated, the temperature for brewing the espresso is not the same as that required for milk frothing. In most under $1000 machines, there is a single broiler to heat the water for espresso but the same broiler has to heat the water to produce steam at a different, temperature for milk, thereby throwing off the thermal equilibrium of the assembly. The better machine also heat the porta-filter assembly. This requires a larger pump and even more sophisticated heat control , management, isolation. .... You also need to keep the water that is flowing during the extraction ("pulling") phase, at a constant temperature. That is not easily done and the machines that are so capable, will cost more... Espresso machines that can provide both good water temperature for extraction and milk frothing require two broilers, thus dual temperature regulation and sometimes dual pump.. These tend to cost more.. A lot more. I don't know any around $750.00... Not even at $2500.oo, that achieves the optimal control of those parameters.
And this is after all a small market, few manufacturers... Most people are too content with a pour over and are gone...
Consistency is key in espresso making. Let me rephrase that: Consistency. Achieving it, seems to cost more. You can make "espresso" with any machine, even <$100.oo. Making espresso with consistent characteristics, is not easy and at this point in time, controlling those parameters require machines that cost more.. Often more than $1000.oo. It is true that you don't need a 10,000.oo machine to do so. I would venture that for most people, $1500.oo for an automatic that would produce consistent if not optimal espresso. To produce optimal espresso, consistently since the largest variable are the beans require more control and the ability to dial-in the settings to a fine degree.. Such machines cost a lot more... I would venture that past $3,000.oo for the Home barista you are in diminishing returns territory . Commercial machines that need to produce gallons of the beverage per day (Keep in mind an espresso shot is about 20 oz..) cost a lot more.. Well over $10,000.oo..

Some recommendations for a budding barista on a (relative) budget, $750.oo and some sweat, to build experience, will produce excellent espresso... after experimentations nd numerous failures..

A good Coffee grinder, that will not heat (cook) the beans during the grinding process and provides, again that word, consistent, easily achievable grind size. One of the best machine at any price is the Breville Smartgrinder at $200.oo or its brother the Intelligrinder at $150.oo... Both do the job as well as any grinder at any price. IMHO. They are not commercial-type but for those who take 4 to 6 cups a day, these will do the job and last years.
IMHO, the best sub $500.oo for those barista with a Science bent and willing to experiment, is the Gaggia Classic Pro, around $450.oo. Well made and customizable ( DIY ).
An electronic scale: Around $50.oo.

You will waste several kg of coffee before arriving at the consistency required but the journey and results can be fun.

I am still waiting/hoping for an ARS-style coffee forum.


Peace.

 

[Brofeld]

The overlap between coffee and science reminded me of Gale Boetticher in Breaking Bad, so I did some googling and found this:

Chemistry behind Gale's coffee maker in Breaking Bad

Is there a scientific basis for the coffee making equipment which Gale Boetticher describes in Breaking Bad? He talks about maintaining the right conditions for bringing out the coffee flavor with...

chemistry.stackexchange.com

 

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

So, lately I've been venturing into the world of espresso, and I see no reason to overspend, much like how I approach my hifi hobby.

As any interest takes hold, I usually check out youtube to gain some insight into the whole thing, but I'm noticing a trend that leaves me frustrated.

Ask any espresso snob on social media, and you'll get the same "you need to spend at least $200 on a grinder" or "Any espresso machine under $1000 is garbage". Oh, don't forget to spend $150 on a fancy brass and stainless tamper when your included plastic tamper $1.50 does the EXACT same thing with NO ACTUAL BENEFIT.

So far, I've got a Delonghi Stilosa, a cheap-o conical burr hand grinder, and coffee. I'm still trying to get the crema to be more substantial like those nespresso's, but I don't want to go down that wasteful route. I've read a lot of it comes down to a good espresso roasted bean and a nice fine grind.

What are your thoughts on the snobbery? Have you noticed it?

Are you into espresso? What gear have you gotten? Thoughts on the fully automatic units?

Audio. Wine. Art. Cars. It's everywhere the same.
People do not buy things for rational reasons and they are not honest about it - not even to themselfes.

This can only be avoided by doing two things:

1. Be honest to oneself. This means observe oneself. This leads to honest questioning, if something we "like", really is worth it's price, of if we just imagine that its better.
2. Understand what oneself really want. This is based on #1. Without being honest to oneself, one will never know, what he really wants. I remember great examples from childhood: I thought the world would end, if I can't get that white colt Zorro used in that movie!
But most adults are not really different.
They buy things they don't need,
with money they don't have,
to impress people they don't know...

A good example of a two way cutting edge are famous registered trademarks. For most people they function to create emotion and imagination and bond it to a product.

But the REAL functionality of trademarks is what?
The inventor/creator of a product/service, puts his/a name on the product to differentiate it from others. Ususally hew is proud of his product and wants his name protected, by registering it, to avoid that it is copied and bad copies damaging his reputation and his name. That's the core idea of a trademark.
That way the trademark can serve to protect the inventors of great products. If he cares about quality and longevity, then the trademark helps us customers, to find more easily products of better quality. I am thinking about Makita for tools, for example.

Now if you buy a Makita tool because it's blue and its more epxensive, you fall into the first, irrational and emotional customer category.
But if you really know what you want (for example a tool with a good probably that it will last a human lifetime for a hobby user) then the trademark can be very helpful for the rational buyer.

Same for the espresso thing:
YOU seem to know what you want (a certain the taste, not the image!). Based on that you are able to concentrate on the aspect that is really important to you. And therefore you noticed, what a ripoff many other products are. You consciously decided to be the rational Cat.2 consumer, not hte irrational Cat.1 consumer.

For me, for example, the taste of coffee is not important. All I want is, that it wakes me up and the price for a machine to me is not worth it.

But we still have two things in common:
We both know, what we really want.Therefore we can define it precisely.
And we have the self esteem, to refuse to spend our money to impress others with a trademark.

Or said differently:
I someone claims that X tastes so much better, then we have the self esteem to say: yeah, but for me the less good tasting coffee is good enough.

That mindset, to learn what kind of sound one really wants to hear, would be very beneficial to many audiophiles, too...

 

[Axo1989]

Who says audio does not involve chemistry? Get some friends over for a listen and within an hour they are all blind drunk.

Not if they are drinking coffee ... oh wait.

 

[cookiefactory]

I read a comment on one of his videos that said ... "I can't decide if he's the youngest old guy i've ever seen, or the oldest young guy i've ever seen".

I see him quoted and linked to all the time so I'm sure he puts out great content, but for the life of me I cannot watch one of his videos all the way through as he's way, way too long-winded.

We got a Breville Oracle Touch a couple of years back and it's been a workhorse, seeing every day use. My wife says it makes the best lattes, rating it higher than the vast majority of coffee shops we've been to.

 

[Count Arthur]

I cannot watch one of his videos all the way through as he's way, way too long-winded.

 

[cookiefactory]

View attachment 286063

It's not the time elapsed that I take issue with, it's the superfluous wording and rambling.