The Observer view on the vinyl revival: LPs are the antidote to a frenetic digital world

[pablolie]

“every honest vinyl fan i have met these days admits it is the ritual. not the sound quality.”

That looked like he was struggling a bit with a sound based preference for vinyl.

You see a contradiction where none exists. ...

I don't think anyone argues with personal preference - that's anyone's free prerogative.

I just disagree when people try to turn personal preference into a universal truth they try to pummel others into accepting. Or when factual fallacies are subtly introduced into an argument to lay the ground for the former.

Saying "I love listening to vinyl" is no crime, heck, I immensely enjoy listening to vinyl (through tubes!!!) at a friend's place. It's saying "Vinyl sounds better" that is objectionable when people start to omit the "to me" disclaimer and try to turn it into a universal truth.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

is there a contradiction? He is maybe arguing that we should adopt vinyl as well because he believes that the colourations are beneficial or preferable for us all. That may be a more honest position than that taken by some who appear to believe the same but won't come straight out with it.

If it is "just" his preference and that is what he is now saying, fine. I'm in dispute with him in another thread, but happy to support him here to the extent that he either states it's his preference, or backs up any attempt to convince us there's more to it with some evidence. I'm not sure he is having the vinyl argument both ways. Arguments over speakers and BACCH, perhaps.

I'm sure that @Justdafactsmaam can stand up for himself here, he's prepared to go up against @amirm after all.

Nope not arguing anyone should adopt anything. I AM arguing that euphonic colorations of vinyl are a real thing and that SOME audiophiles prefer them. Nothing more.

 

[JustJones]

perhaps I've mentioned that I am preternaturally lazy...

That's why I stream to lazy to rummage through the CDs, not that I have very many anymore, walk over to the player and put it in. Wife says let's listen to some music, tap on the tablet screen a few times, wow! Music. Didn't even leave the couch.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

I don't think anyone argues with personal preference - that's anyone's free prerogative.

I just disagree when people try to turn personal preference into a universal truth they try to pummel others into accepting. Or when factual fallacies are subtly introduced into an argument to lay the ground for the former.

Saying "I love listening to vinyl" is no crime, heck, I immensely enjoy listening to vinyl (through tubes!!!) at a friend's place. It's saying "Vinyl sounds better" that is objectionable when people start to omit the "to me" disclaimer and try to turn it into a universal truth.

“Anyone?” I don’t really want to name names but there is a 300 plus page thread that’s still going…

I get dog piled for simply pointing out that “better” is inherently subjective.

Maybe it’s me but the position that it’s ok for others to have preferences so long as they acknowledge those preferences are inferior and irrational is not really a state of being ok with other peoples’ preferences.

 

[pablolie]

“Anyone?” I don’t really want to name names but there is a 300 plus page thread that’s still going…

I get dog piled for simply pointing out that “better” is inherently subjective.

Maybe it’s me but the position that it’s ok for others to have preferences so long as they acknowledge those preferences are inferior and irrational is not really a state of being ok with other peoples’ preferences.

Well, I didn't participate in the dogpile.

I just caution about using words like "better" in a scientific audio forum. "Better" can be easily understood as a quantitative statement (as in "it measures better") rather than "better for me", which is a subjective qualitative statement that may be influenced by many factors. It's easy to see that many of these analog vs digital source debates circle around that fundamental disconnect.

I could not care less if someone says they personally enjoy listening to music while wearing 2 week old unwashed underwear (although I probably wouldn't accept their invitation to listen to music :-D), but I'd draw the line if they claim I am wrong for not doing the same. That's all.

 

[kemmler3D]

the position that it’s ok for others to have preferences so long as they acknowledge those preferences are inferior and irrational is not really a state of being ok with other peoples’ preferences.

I think that's a bit of a strawman, I have seen very few posts where simply preferring vinyl or tubes is considered inferior / irrational.

Higher fidelity, quantitatively defined according to certain norms, is the point of most of the tests and reviews on this site. That isn't the same as saying all deviations from those quantitatively defined norms are bad or stupid, although it might feel that way sometimes.

If you come into ASR and assert that XYZ is higher fidelity or simply better, without evidence, you're going to get piled on.

SOME (a few) members believe higher fidelity = better, lower fidelity = worse, period, and will denigrate anything with lower performance as irrational or bad.

MOST members here thankfully acknowledge that higher fidelity is usually better for most people, but if fidelity is the jury, preference is the judge and executioner, so to speak. I haven't seen anyone asked to justify their preferences with numbers. I have seen just about everyone asked to justify their factual assertions with numbers.

As @pablolie points out, the problem is when someone loses track of whether we're talking preferences or facts.

 

[DonR]

Playing a CD -- now that's easy*.
Put the thing in, push a button.
Perfect Sound Forever.


______________
* perhaps I've mentioned that I am preternaturally lazy...

Until the laser gives out or a belt turns into mush or a gear snaps or a cap spews its guts.

 

[Platypus20]

Well, I didn't participate in the dogpile.

I just caution about using words like "better" in a scientific audio forum. "Better" can be easily understood as a quantitative statement (as in "it measures better") rather than "better for me", which is a subjective qualitative statement that may be influenced by many factors. It's easy to see that many of these analog vs digital source debates circle around that fundamental disconnect.

I could not care less if someone says they personally enjoy listening to music while wearing 2 week old unwashed underwear (although I probably wouldn't accept their invitation to listen to music :-D), but I'd draw the line if they claim I am wrong for not doing the same. That's all.

I thought most listened buck naked on a vinyl sofa or recliner, while eating Cheetos!!!

 

[olieb]

Playing a CD -- now that's easy*.
Put the thing in, push a button.

No doubt, that is easy. But to play a stream you can even skip the first part.
And you describe only the part AFTER being in possession of the CD. But that is the hard part, of course. Whereas to get a stream you only have to input some words in a search field.
Now, THAT is lazy. (For some people it is somehow too much laziness.)

 

[DonR]

I thought most listened buck naked on a vinyl sofa or recliner, while eating Cheetos!!!

Note to self: turn off Wyzecam in living room, obviously someone is watching.

 

[Galliardist]

Nope not arguing anyone should adopt anything. I AM arguing that euphonic colorations of vinyl are a real thing and that SOME audiophiles prefer them. Nothing more.

Got that. Thanks.

 

[CapMan]

CD sales also doing well in the UK

CDs shine as UK music sales in 2023 jump to near record figure

Taylor Swift dominates album market, while best-performing track is Miley Cyrus’s Flowers

www.theguardian.com

 

[KikoKentaurus]

I don't know why there is so much skepsis: vinyl sound in fact is perceived like he is "richer", because of unique pattern distortion + FR + vinyl aging (possible). There is a whole theory about sound artifacts that they are NEEDED to get that unconscious music information.

And when the price for good low-end player can go as low as 250$, I simply see no reason where this could be a "fish oil". Knowing that modern music is purely functional (i.e. meant not for thinking or knowledge gathering, but to simply have a good time) one could explore that deep world of older music..

All that knowing, of course, that achieved transparency in a digital world lets us all be on the same page when talking about music. Analogue is dead, but dead can be pretty too!

 

[holdingpants01]

CD sales also doing well in the UK

CDs shine as UK music sales in 2023 jump to near record figure

Taylor Swift dominates album market, while best-performing track is Miley Cyrus’s Flowers

www.theguardian.com

ironically for the same reasons as LP popularity that is driven by collectors, retromania by the younger people, physicality etc.
I don't know if it was shared before, but the sale of a physical medium doesn't automatically mean people are actually using it

Half of Vinyl Buyers in the US Don’t Have a Record Player

The strange statistic, revealed in a new report, indicates that "superfans" may be responsible for the shift in sales.

hypebeast.com

 

[antcollinet]

I get dog piled for simply pointing out that “better” is inherently subjective.

Because it is not... inherently.... subjective

Better can be defined both objectively (ie in terms of FR, distortion and noise) and subjectively (our emotional response to the sound, or simply how it sounds to us).

Objectively vinyl is worse.

However, subjectively it can sound better to an individual - that objective worse doesn't make the subjective better irrational.

Even the generally-perceived-as-seriously-negative aspects can provoke a positive emotional response. For example take the lyrics (passenger):

"I took myself down to the cafe to find all
The boys lost in books and crackling vinyl"

In my mind this creates a picture of a cosy cafe, perhaps rain rattling the windows, a fire in the corner. Warm music and warm friends.

In a way that:

"I took myself down to the cafe to find all
The boys lost in kindle and digital downloads"

Does not.

Perhaps a reason for the number of songs that actually have a vinyl crackling effect added to the mix.

 

[CapMan]

No doubt, that is easy. But to play a stream you can even skip the first part.
And you describe only the part AFTER being in possession of the CD. But that is the hard part, of course. Whereas to get a stream you only have to input some words in a search field.
Now, THAT is lazy. (For some people it is somehow too much laziness.)

“Hey Google, play demo quality female vocal jazz tracks to impress my friends” is also simple

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Because it is not... inherently.... subjective

Better can be defined both objectively (ie in terms of FR, distortion and noise) and subjectively (our emotional response to the sound, or simply how it sounds to us).

Objectively vinyl is worse.

However, subjectively it can sound better to an individual - that objective worse doesn't make the subjective better irrational.

Even the generally-perceived-as-seriously-negative aspects can provoke a positive emotional response. For example take the lyrics (passenger):

"I took myself down to the cafe to find all
The boys lost in books and crackling vinyl"

In my mind this creates a picture of a cosy cafe, perhaps rain rattling the windows, a fire in the corner. Warm music and warm friends.

In a way that:

"I took myself down to the cafe to find all
The boys lost in kindle and digital downloads"

Does not.

Perhaps a reason for the number of songs that actually have a vinyl crackling effect added to the mix.

When it comes to sound quality better always hinges on a chosen objective. That choice is always subjective. Even if your choice can be measured objectively.

Greater accuracy is objectively more accurate. Tautological fact. It’s only better when accuracy is the chosen goal. All goals are subjective choices.

Objectively vinyl is less accurate. Whether or not it’s better depends on what one wants.

But if we are going to quote lyrics “all we are is dust in the wind dude” Bill and Ted

 

[gsp1971]

“Hey Google, play demo quality female vocal jazz tracks to impress my friends” is also simple

Hey Google, please select the electronics for me, buy them, set them up, optimize my speaker positioning, optimize my subwoofer crossover, and then play demo quality female vocal jazz tracks to impress my friends.

Oh, and a scotch on ice, please.

 

[Jaxjax]

For the record ( pardon the pun), vinyl vs digital at least for me has nothing to do with the medium itself.
When CDs came out I felt I could stop aspiring to own a Koetsu cartridge in the future.
Then I though there was something wrong with my systems, or worse my ears, until I found out there was a "loudness war" going on.
and a "remastered"/reissued "movement".

So I kept my albums. And someday I might even spring for an eye-watering priced cartridge.
Now if I could somehow stop wondering what "new" releases would sound like had they been released on (aka mastered for ) vinyl, I would be all set !
(and before someone else mentions it - Dire Straits' - Brother in Arms seems to be an exception rather than the rule )

--------
(this post is digital - subject to re-write, re-mastering and re-release )

Thats why all my CD's are in Bins & have been for a long time.. most of them are crap. I can find good stream transfers but I would never sell my LP collection again...I was fooled once....
It's NOT a vs debate
It's the damn version one might have.. they are far far from equal.
How & when was that master transferred ?
who did it
on & on & on
I'm pretty sure there is a real reason why so many studios have & use hardware instead of completely in the box......
Joe