• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

The decline and fall of Reflex.

I can't figure out what half of you guys are even arguing about.

However, almost all lenses that came onto the market before 2012 cannot transfer the current resolutions. And the two major camera manufacturers in particular are still lagging behind.

I recently did a walk with a 2008-vintage 24-70mm f/2.8 on my 61MP A7RIVa and was pleasantly surprised to find it pin sharp down to 1:1. I've been very pleased by what resolution I can get out of even older Minolta full-frame lenses on this body.

The 61MP Sony chip has the same pixel pitch (~3.8µm) as a 16MP micro 4/3's sensor. The 20MP m43 sensors are even more demanding, with 3.3µm pitch. I've got plenty of (many fairly cheap) Olympus / Panasonic lenses that will easily resolve to 1:1.

I think what you guys are finding is that a lot of these older kit / travel zooms weren't very good to begin with.
 
I recently did a walk with a 2008-vintage 24-70mm f/2.8 on my 61MP A7RIVa and was pleasantly surprised to find it pin sharp down to 1:1.
Try the corners at ƒ/2.8
 
Nikon still is selling DSLR's, mainly full frame. F mount lenses are being discontinued slowly. One significant development over the last year of two is a collapse in prices for used F-Mount lenses. Screwdriver AF lenses are pretty much worthless as they don't autofocus on a Z mount with an adaptor. Declines have been most pronounced for zooms. Maybe the video guys still like their MF lenses. A rumor about the D850 being discontinued due to EU uniform charger rules turned out to be false.

IMO, the new Z8 provides the level of performance that D850 shooters are looking for. They are on sale for $3500 right now. I could buy one, but I just can't get excited about it. I will probably die before my D850 wears out.

Used DSLR bodies and F-Mount lenses are a bargain for budget constrained photographers who want high quality imaging.
 
Used DSLR bodies and F-Mount lenses are a bargain for budget constrained photographers who want high quality imaging.
It's true. The Canon 6D is still a great camera and around $400 used now. That plus the 40/2.8 pancake is a fantastic, compact, inexpensive combo.
 
It's true. The Canon 6D is still a great camera and around $400 used now. That plus the 40/2.8 pancake is a fantastic, compact, inexpensive combo.
The Nikon D800 is similarly cheap.
 
As soon as the Sony A7 got released back in 2013 I replaced my Nikon D700 with it, and this mainly for the size, the Nikon really was a clumsy piece of camera and nothing you just randomly brought with you.
As a bonus I got a constant 'live view' and could more easily shot from different perspectives since I didn't have to have my eye glued to the cramped optical viewfinder. People also told me they where more relaxed when I shot them since I could have it in my lap or so instead of high up in my face. It also got way easier to focus with me MF lenses snd I could slso adapt almost any type of oold lenses, such as my new favorite the Minolta 45mm f2.
Sure the A7 was a bit buggy while the D700 just worked while also being generally faster, but since I got that A7 I've not ever looked back at those big, heavy and clumsy DSLRs. Today I'm rocking a Sony A7iii and it really is an awesome camera!
 
Sure the A7 was a bit buggy while the D700 just worked while also being generally faster, but since I got that A7 I've not ever looked back at those big, heavy and clumsy DSLRs.
It always bugged me how extraordinarily large and heavy were the prosumer-to-pro DSLR models. Genuinely brick-like.

Mirrorless cameras were more like the true successors to SLR cameras in terms of size and weight and feel in hand.

After decades of SLR ownership, I was a somewhat late adopter of digital, waiting for more than ten MP and shocked by prices compared to SLR prices. After trying prosumer DSLR for a few years, I moved to mirrorless in 2013 and felt much more at home in terms of what was in my hand. I only stepped up to full frame in 2020.

Today I'm rocking a Sony A7iii and it really is an awesome camera!
α7R III for me and I totally agree with you.
 
I suspect those who loved the original Olympus OM-1 will be like Newman and appreciate the compactness of mirrorless cameras.

My hands are large and bulky, and not always particularly well connected to my brain. I have always enjoyed big cameras that don’t tangle up my fingers. I had a buddy who loved his OM-1–I loved my Canon F-1. And that big Canon was my small-format camera—the fleet just got bigger from there

So, brick-like DSLRs are no problem for me. My usual grab camera these days is a Pentax 645z—chunkier by far than any of my Canon 5D fleet—but so satisfying to hold and use.

That said, I did just buy a Canon 500d, why is more compact and much lighter (read: more plastic) than any of my 5D cameras, for use on a telescope for astrophotography. Different set of requirements altogether. Why didn’t I get a mirrorless camera, or even better a dedicated astrophotography camera? I’ll tell you why: $75 shipped versus MUCH higher prices for those others on the used market for the same basic sensor specs. (APS-C with >15mp and pixels of 4-5 microns.)

Unpopular technology sure does provide some unique buying opportunities.

Rick “will probably have it modified to see IR” Denney
 
I never had any SLR as small as an OM-1. Completely not my point. Too big is too big, when the total population of users is considered. Prosumer-to-pro DSLRs were an oversized anomaly between right-sized SLR and right-sized mirrorless cameras, overall. Consider the average hand size and body strength of all the women in the world. Why should cameras not be sized for them too? DSLRs were a bad fit for the overall user base.

And I do celebrate when any technology advances by delivering more performance in smaller and lighter packages. Especially any technology meant to be carried. It’s a no-brainer.

I’m glad for the small proportion of large males that they can find a brick-like camera that suits them and they are happy to lug around. But it never should have been a mainstream product.
 
I still like my optical viewfinder, and my lens collection, so I'm staying with DSLR.

On a more philosophic note I like the DSLR and optical viewfinder because I see the real image and get to compare my photographic results with my memory of the real thing. If I use an EVF I just see the processed image, now that may produce as good or even better image as I can see in real time the effect of my in-camera settings but I have no absolute reference. When I post process the image to match as best as possible my impressions and memory of the actual subject I'd only be trying to create a more impressive image not my best attempt at portraying the image I saw. This may or may not matter to anyone else but I like the challenge :)
 
Last edited:
Just thinking out loud about the camera business...

The Z 6III looks to be brilliant and will probably be my next camera. But they really need to incorporate some of the advancements that smartphones have made, such as in-camera stitching of panorama photos, night sight, etc. Most people use smartphones for their sheer convenience, and I don't think that's going to change unless they see other options and ILCs become easier to use and finish out their photos with.
 
I still like my optical viewfinder, and my lens collection, so I'm staying with DSLR.
And you are in a very small minority. :)

I tend to be a late adopter, but when it came to mirrorless, the advantages were too obvious. I jumped within 5 years of their arrival, which is early by my standards.

On a more philosophic note I like the DSLR and optical viewfinder because I see the real image
I regularly point out that it is wrong to think that a DSLR user is 'looking through the lens at the scene itself'. No they don't do that. Just like mirrorless EVF users, DSLR users are looking at a little screen a couple of inches from their eye. The screen is covered in little grounds, which act like pixels and emit light. That's what you are seeing.

and get to compare my photographic results with my memory of the real thing.
Yeahhh, that doesn't happen either. Visual memory is shockingly bad like that. Same goes for audio memory of course: I hope we on ASR are suffering no delusions that we can remember the audio from a live event well enough to compare it to the sound from our speakers later that day at home, in terms of the sound waves themselves. Same issues.

If I use an EVF I just see the processed image, now that may produce as good or even better image as I can see in real time the effect of my in-camera settings but I have no absolute reference.
I do! How, you may ask? Well I have these things called eyes, with which I was looking at the subject matter before I raised my camera. The whole notion that I have no absolute reference is not right.

You would actually be better off using a mirrorless camera to do what you are trying to do. You can alternate between looking at the scene with the naked eye, and raising the camera to look at the 'final image' as portrayed in the EVF. No visual memory catastrophe.

When I post process the image to match as best as possible my impressions and memory of the actual subject I'd only be trying to create a more impressive image not my best attempt at portraying the image I saw.
Same mistakes here as I noted above.

In fact, there are several important ways that the OVF view is less realistic than the EVF view. For example lens distortion: it's not in the scene itself, it's not in the final image, but it's in the OVF. Same for lens vignetting: it's not in the scene itself, it's not in the final image, but it's in the OVF. The EVF auto-corrects for these imposed errors and gives us a better representation of what the scene itself looks like and what the final image looks like.

Plus, in dim lighting, an OVF turns dim compared to reality and sometimes we can't even see what is going on in the scene. An EVF can brighten and provide critical information from the scene that the OVF can't.

This may or may not matter to anyone else but I like the challenge :)
The whole idea, that one can't do this as a mirrorless camera user, doesn't hold up. :)
 
I suspect those who loved the original Olympus OM-1 will be like Newman and appreciate the compactness of mirrorless cameras.

My hands are large and bulky, and not always particularly well connected to my brain. I have always enjoyed big cameras that don’t tangle up my fingers. I had a buddy who loved his OM-1–I loved my Canon F-1. And that big Canon was my small-format camera—the fleet just got bigger from there

So, brick-like DSLRs are no problem for me. My usual grab camera these days is a Pentax 645z—chunkier by far than any of my Canon 5D fleet—but so satisfying to hold and use.

That said, I did just buy a Canon 500d, why is more compact and much lighter (read: more plastic) than any of my 5D cameras, for use on a telescope for astrophotography. Different set of requirements altogether. Why didn’t I get a mirrorless camera, or even better a dedicated astrophotography camera? I’ll tell you why: $75 shipped versus MUCH higher prices for those others on the used market for the same basic sensor specs. (APS-C with >15mp and pixels of 4-5 microns.)

Unpopular technology sure does provide some unique buying opportunities.

Rick “will probably have it modified to see IR” Denney
I got hands size 11 but I still like my camera to be small, mostly because it easier when not shooting to carry it, pack it in a bag or whatever. While shooting though I'm fine with D700 size cameras, but seeing that the actual shooting is generally way less than carrying the choice is easy for me.
A bonus with larger cameras though is that it gets more stable when shooting, but my A7iii got inbody stabilization anyways which not many DSLR never had afaik so I'm fine with loosing that small bonus.

About the viewfinder I do very much prefer having an electronic one that's showing exactly what I'm capturing instead of having to take a picture and then look at it hoping it's properly exposed. Though personally I never ever use the viewfinder on my A7 and instead always use the screen since I feel it's a way more relaxed way of shooting while always easier to shoot from weird perspectives etc.
 
I still love my D500 Nikons. I also love my 105MM F1.4 and my AF-S 200 F2 VR2G.
Great glass and great cameras. I need nothing else and have the pro zooms as well. I am set.

I am a fossil but enjoy the images I get nonetheless. I maybe clueless but...I am happy.

Upgrade urgency...zero.
 
I still love my D500 Nikons. I also love my 105MM F1.4 and my AF-S 200 F2 VR2G.
Great glass and great cameras. I need nothing else and have the pro zooms as well. I am set.

I am a fossil but enjoy the images I get nonetheless. I maybe clueless but...I am happy.

Upgrade urgency...zero.
You'll definitely get good pictures from those stuff! If you don't know what your missing (or just don't care) and is fine with that then just use whatever you have :) I did really like my old D700 as well, it's just that I disliked the size that I felt I needed to change, otherwise it was a good and stable camera giving great photos.
 
I really enjoyed my D300. I was very agile with that camera when it came to people and wildlife.

But I enjoyed the size and features of my Z 6 more. And the IQ of the Z lenses is top rate and noticeably better than the Nikon G lenses of that era.
 
Newer F-Mount lenses will be around for decades. Any with electronic AF will work with AF with an adaptor on Z mount. Except for the 20mm and 24-120 the Z mount lenses don't offer enough of an improvement to upgrade unless you are obsessed with having the latest thing.
 
Back
Top Bottom