Stereophile Now Measuring Turntables....

[MattHooper]

I just noticed in the new VPI turntable review that Stereophile is doing measurements:

VPI Avenger Direct Turntable & 12" FatBoy tonearm Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements Fig.1 Wow and flutter ref. 3150Hz tone at 5cm/s (plotted ±150Hz, 5Hz per minor division) Fig.2 Unweighted rumble from DC-200Hz (with clamp, blue; without clamp, black) all ref. 1kHz at 5cm/s.

www.stereophile.com

Perhaps they'd done some in previous reviews but I didn't notice. Good to see, though.
(Others here will be able to opine as to the worth of these measurements...)

 

[tomelex]

Thanks, I would like to see the measurements of the big boys, AF One and all that, lets see if they can beat my eighties turntable!

 

[Keith_W]

I have had some exposure to some high end turntables. As the performance of TT's goes up, they start sounding like CD players. One of the most impressively engineered turntables I heard was a Continuum Caliburn TT which had vacuum hold-down and was extremely speed stable. Apart from the surface noise of vinyl (almost absent with good discs), the sound was extremely close to CD. This was years ago, but if I had the same experience now I would be interested in digitizing the output from the phono stage and comparing it to CD to see how close it gets.

What would be really interesting would be to see how measurements of turntables correlate to listener preferences.

 

[Balle Clorin]

In some reviews the have used the ShaknSpin to give som speed stability numbers. But they often skip this, I guess the performance would be too embarrassing for the manufacturer, Many high end turntables are quite poor , due to lack of a good belt I guess. And the new Thorens DD124 direct drive is soo poor it should be pulled from the market. See HifiNews

 

[mike70]

... and now Stereophile is direct drive "friendly".Wow.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I just noticed in the new VPI turntable review that Stereophile is doing measurements:

VPI Avenger Direct Turntable & 12" FatBoy tonearm Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements Fig.1 Wow and flutter ref. 3150Hz tone at 5cm/s (plotted ±150Hz, 5Hz per minor division) Fig.2 Unweighted rumble from DC-200Hz (with clamp, blue; without clamp, black) all ref. 1kHz at 5cm/s.

www.stereophile.com

Perhaps they'd done some in previous reviews but I didn't notice. Good to see, though.
(Others here will be able to opine as to the worth of these measurements...)

Interesting. Since I read ASR, I also learn more about devices and companies that I have not paid so much attention from a European perspective.
VPI is one of these.

I also see it, for example, when it comes to floor standing loudspeakers. There are often models mentioned in ASR which have, if at all, only a small market share in Germany. Overall, I myself also owned only relatively few things from US production. There are exceptions, of course.

 

[DSJR]

So, Stereophile is slowly descending into mid-fi quality sources as well as overblown electronics and speakers?

My beef with vinyl isn't the turntables and *modern* pickups with flat-to-rising hf response (which helps compensate for the losses in the plastic material), but the actual discs themselves and the ghastly things often needed to be done to get music in those grooves in the first place! Not that that pouts audiophiles off, as in my experience, the high end fraternity seems to use the music as the means to show off and judge the gear and the flashier the turntable, the 'better' it is? Having said that, now Fremer's gone, a little bit of sense might come into it.

Loads more to say but it's not really worth it, as any half decent non audiophile tuned CD player, let alone streaming, will offer a more truthful sonic perspective on well mastered material - plenty about, especially 90's mastered 50's jazz I remember.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Having said that, now Fremer's gone, a little bit of sense might come into it.

Well, and what remains then? Everything is rationalized and converted to digital technology? And the interface are small screens on the smartphone? That could become a very boring time with sensual impoverishment.

(I do not go along with everything thoughtlessly)

 

[DSJR]

Well, and what remains then? Everything is rationalized and converted to digital technology? And the interface are small screens on the smartphone? That could become a very boring time with sensual impoverishment.

(I do not go along with everything thoughtlessly)

Depends what you want out of music reproduction I suppose. I like tinkering with the gear (turntables were my thing and a huge part of my living for decades), but the music rules and today, I find I'm increasingly not so bothered with the mechanics of it all. When house move comes (I keep threatening it'll happen, but it will at some point in the mid-future), I'll need to get rid of all my audio 'tat' and concentrate on a final but decent home-friendly stereo system that anyone in th ehouse can use if they want to (herself won't go near my 'stuff' currently).

 

[computer-audiophile]

OK, I understand, such a step can always be refreshing. I've gone through several phases where I've given away almost everything. Some of it I regretted. But a lot of it is still in good hands today, for example, what I had built.

But then it grows again. Record players resist the abolition. But it's already become significantly less. And I stream the music almost exclusively.

 

[dougi]

It's Paul Miller though, who does then for the sister pub hi-fi news. Same presentation too. Better than nothing though.

 

[computer-audiophile]

It's Paul Miller though, who does then for the sister pub hi-fi news. Same presentation too. Better than nothing though.

Paul Miller

Racks by Quadraspire hold a combination of analogue (SME) and digital (Sony BD plus HD media server) sources. Amplifiers by Devialet and Krell service the combined stereo and multichannel system. Speakers are B&W Nautilus 802D (front), HTM1 (centre), Nautilus 804 (surround and back) and ASW850...

www.hifinews.com

For those who do not know him. (Like me for example)

 

[mhardy6647]

I just noticed in the new VPI turntable review that Stereophile is doing measurements:

VPI Avenger Direct Turntable & 12" FatBoy tonearm Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements Fig.1 Wow and flutter ref. 3150Hz tone at 5cm/s (plotted ±150Hz, 5Hz per minor division) Fig.2 Unweighted rumble from DC-200Hz (with clamp, blue; without clamp, black) all ref. 1kHz at 5cm/s.

www.stereophile.com

...

I don't know about youse guyses, but -- to me -- nothing conveys that impression of understated audiophile elegance as does a product name like FatBoy.

 

[Dimitri]

I don't know about youse guyses, but -- to me -- nothing conveys that impression of understated audiophile elegance as does a product name like FatBoy.

Except "Avenger"

 

[mhardy6647]

It has been widely speculated that Roy Hall's (Music Hall's) "MMF" moniker for his/their turntable line stands for Make Money Fast.

Not to drift off-topic (me?!? perish the thought!), but Adcom's GFA line were to be construed by the market as Great eFfing Amplifier(s)...

 

[computer-audiophile]

And the new Thorens DD124 direct drive is soo poor it should be pulled from the market. See HifiNews

I found only this report. What exactly does your criticism refer to?

Thorens TD 124 DD Turntable

An homage to the legendary TD 124 that reigned supreme from 1957-67, this latter-day derivative looks the part but trades an idler-drive for a custom direct-drive motor As occasionally backward-looking as hi-fi is – if no worse than cars, fashion or watches – one needs to raise the dead with care.

www.hifinews.com

 

[al2002]

I found only this report. What exactly does your cri

Thorens TD 124 DD Turntable

An homage to the legendary TD 124 that reigned supreme from 1957-67, this latter-day derivative looks the part but trades an idler-drive for a custom direct-drive motor As occasionally backward-looking as hi-fi is – if no worse than cars, fashion or watches – one needs to raise the dead with care.

www.hifinews.com

Look at this (Thorens):

Compare to this (Technics):

Note the broader peak on the Thorens, indicative of higher W&F.

Here‘s an excellent belt drive (SME):

 

[Snarfie]

Suppose they start measuring that good they start sounding Digital

 

[spiral scratch]

Look at this Thorens):

View attachment 289965



Compare to this (Technics):


View attachment 289964
Note the broader peak on the Thorens, indicative of higher W&F.

Here‘s an excellent belt drive (SME):



View attachment 289966

I remember reading the TD 403 also suffered from poor performance in this regard, but I couldn't find the measurements. To answer the OP's question. I think it's a pretty good indication that turntable measurements are useful to determine if gear has been properly engineered. That's (TD 124 DD) a £7999 turntable that they haven't even bothered to address wow/flutter as other turntables have shown is achievable.

I think that resonances are another thing that can be measured and should be controlled. I've read a number of people discussing some turntable being over or under-damped and it often comes down to someone purporting to hear the difference but nothing gets measured. I would think a clean unmodified signal would be ideal. It seems to me that a well damped turntable would be desirable to eliminate spurious vibration entering the pickup signal, but I'm guessing that would be deemed, "lifeless".

Tonearms are another critical aspect, but there doesn't seem to much done to assess their measurable performance. I guess one can't remove the cartridge from the equation.

 

[DVDdoug]

Stereophile has been around since the days of tubes, vinyl, and printed magazines so I assume they used to review and measure turntables.

When I used to play records I never heard any difference from a "decent" turntable. I've heard rumble/noise from cheap plastic turntables and I've heard broken turntables with wow or other speed problems.

...I've heard differences with different cartridges. I was always foolishly upgrading, or wanting to upgrade, my cartridge even though I knew the main problem was the records. And I was always hoping that my latest record purchase would be one of the few good ones. (My 1st record player and my parents record player had ceramic cartridges).

they start sounding like CD players.

I've never heard a record that sounded like a CD... I've never heard a record that was dead-silent between tracks or during the fade-out I've never heard a phono preamp that didn't have some audible noise when turned-up or when listening with headphones.

Maybe some newer records are better than in the vinyl days but in those days most records were mediocre. And maybe there are some "silent" preamps. But personally I don't really care because I don't play records. Occasionally I digitize a record that's not available digitally but of course those records are old and a better setup isn't going to improve the sound.