Sound stage depth?

[kongwee]

Low mass diaphragm speaker driver, copper coil inductor, copper foil capacitor and copper resistor will fast reveal details of imaging and depth. That assume FR is relatively flat.

 

[jtgofish]

Can you come up with data for that? Can you put numbers to it, referencing a standard? How do you know that other people hear this same thing? After all, like you said, they sold lots of them.



Same thing. Can you quantify that? Can you give us data? For the second time:

View attachment 231878

Ji

Can you come up with data for that? Can you put numbers to it, referencing a standard? How do you know that other people hear this same thing? After all, like you said, they sold lots of them.



Same thing. Can you quantify that? Can you give us data? For the second time:

View attachment 231878

Jim

What is the right to freedom of opinion and expression? The right to freedom of opinion is the right to hold opinions without interference, and cannot be subject to any exception or restriction.

Right to freedom of opinion and expression​

https://www.ag.gov.au › public-sector-guidance-sheets › r...

 

[kongwee]

I'll ask the same thing of you as I asked @jtgofish : do you have any data to back up that claim? Jim

No data at all. But you can see many if not all these stuff in 10k+ and above speaker. Speaker manufacture like Magico just almost made these stuff by themselves. Beside I used to have friends mod speaker using all those premium LCR and the difference is big in details, sound-staging and layering. If you ever find such person, go and listen to it. Not everything you need data or graph.

 

[jtgofish]

Then there are three little letters you can use: IMO. They stand for IN MY OPINION.

I don't see them anywhere in your post. Instead, what you wrote comes off as sounding like fact .... which it isn't. It's not only just your opinion, but it's an unprovable and indefensible opinion.

And I'm not Australian.

Jim

Well I am an Australian citizen and under Australian law I have those rights of freedom of opinion.Not all citizens do of course.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

The Revel F208 is an interesting modern speaker because it has relatively poor image depth and projection despite measuring very well.There is very little projection in front of the plane of the speakers although there is some depth back behind them.There is a small dip in the 1500Hz -2500Hz range that some reviewers have commented on and which they have suggested might account for this recessed soundstage but it is only very slight.Very odd that Revel would release a speaker that sounds like that and yet they sold lots of them.They would probably be OK with orchestral music but sound quite odd with closely mic'ed vocals.They have now discontinued them.That speaker was measured here but nothing too unusual was found.
Another common speaker that has poor mage depth is the Yamaha NS1000.Many people seem not to hear how poor the imaging is on them.They have a peanut shaped soundstage and you will observe experienced listeners moving their heads from side to side trying to get a central image to lock in but it never happens.
Some people seem to only hear left/right and tone.

That is completely wrong. IMO.

Just exercising my freedom of speech rights.

 

[kongwee]

I see. I suppose it's too much to ask for a double-blind test?

Jim

I ask to Amir to do some test about those premium LCR also a good way to expel myth. At least original crossover vs premium mod. No action from him.

 

[kongwee]

Do you mean that you assembled several crossovers, using parts that had identical specifications but were constructed of different materials? I would think such a test would be very interesting. And yes, I think it would dispel some myths.

So you asked him whether he would be interested in testing your crossovers, and he has not answered you yet, correct? When did you ask him? Jim

Yup, same spec comparing cheap crossover vs premium replacement. Many months ago on some GR research threads.

I have don't have any crossover, I'm not a DIY-er. I am pretty sure it is very easy for him to came up with such test.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Yup, same spec comparing cheap crossover vs premium replacement. Many months ago on some GR research threads.

I have don't have any crossover, I'm not a DIY-er. I am pretty sure it is very easy for him to came up with such test.

There is some actual data.

AES Paper Digest: Audio Capacitors. Myth or reality?

Thanks to Michael for bringing my attention to this paper. I had it in my library already but I did not remember it :). Audio Capacitors. Myth or reality? P. J. Duncan , P. S. Dodds , and N. Williams University of Salford, Greater Manchester, M5 4WT, UK. [email protected] ICW Ltd...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Not speaking for Amir, but I would presume he knows the outcome of such a test and therefore doesn’t think it is worthwhile.

 

[Rednaxela]

I think he knows he’s not the claimant.

 

[Rednaxela]

Beside I used to have friends mod speaker using all those premium LCR and the difference is big in details, sound-staging and layering. If you ever find such person, go and listen to it.

Not everything you need data or graph.

For claims like the one above you do. Otherwise just keep it at I heard a big difference.

 

[Beave]

The Revel F208 is an interesting modern speaker because it has relatively poor image depth and projection despite measuring very well.There is very little projection in front of the plane of the speakers although there is some depth back behind them.There is a small dip in the 1500Hz -2500Hz range that some reviewers have commented on and which they have suggested might account for this recessed soundstage but it is only very slight.Very odd that Revel would release a speaker that sounds like that and yet they sold lots of them.They would probably be OK with orchestral music but sound quite odd with closely mic'ed vocals.They have now discontinued them.That speaker was measured here but nothing too unusual was found.
Another common speaker that has poor mage depth is the Yamaha NS1000.Many people seem not to hear how poor the imaging is on them.They have a peanut shaped soundstage and you will observe experienced listeners moving their heads from side to side trying to get a central image to lock in but it never happens.
Some people seem to only hear left/right and tone.

They have? (Responding to the Revel F208 being discontinued)

 

[voodooless]

No data at all. But you can see many if not all these stuff in 10k+ and above speaker. Speaker manufacture like Magico just almost made these stuff by themselves.

So? What do you think that this proves?

 

[kongwee]

1) If you're not a DIY-er, how do you know what your friends did to the crossover when they changed parts? They may have changed values as well as materials.

2) I think we need to make something clear: YOU made the statement; it's up to YOU to provide controlled scientific data to support your statement. It is not for other people to do your work for you; that's a very thoughtless, inconsiderate and selfish attitude. You need to provide the crossovers, paying for them yourself. You would also need to provide drivers as load termination for the crossovers to have any meaning in real-world use.

@HarmonicTHD has referenced an interesting paper. Time and again, tests have shown that subjective impressions cannot be scientifically confirmed. This is, as we all know, an on-going process of testing and re-testing. But the vast majority of results, so far, have shown that the human ear has a poor ability to isolate characteristics that can be expressed quite easily with instrumentation.

The statement was made above that the outcome of such a test as you have suggested is already known. I think that is correct. You stated .....


I think you have that a little bit backwards. The "... listen to it ...." part is correct. The rest is, "... if you hear a difference, data and graphs will show what the difference is."


I would like you to read this paper. I suggest using DeepL Translate as the translation app. The paper is addressed to businessmen, but the principles it discusses are applicable to all human knowledge.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes...n-reality-not-imagined-facts/?sh=3f188b71cf18

Thank you, and good luck!

Jim

My friend still retain the original crossover which using cheap LCR. It is easy to do the A/B test. Beside his speaker is easily audition in my country. I already heard several times. My brother even bought a pair. It is easy for me hear the difference.

There is some actual data.

AES Paper Digest: Audio Capacitors. Myth or reality?

Thanks to Michael for bringing my attention to this paper. I had it in my library already but I did not remember it :). Audio Capacitors. Myth or reality? P. J. Duncan , P. S. Dodds , and N. Williams University of Salford, Greater Manchester, M5 4WT, UK. [email protected] ICW Ltd...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Not speaking for Amir, but I would presume he knows the outcome of such a test and therefore doesn’t think it is worthwhile.

At people can differential electrolyte cap from poly or film cap whether you name it. Electrolyte cap cost 10 to even 100 time cheaper than these film or poly caps. Poly or film cap some manufacturer product their own as Jenson or Milfex cost are insane. That goes to in house copper inductor and copper resistor.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

My friend still retain the original crossover which using cheap LCR. It is easy to do the A/B test. Beside his speaker is easily audition in my country. I already heard several times. My brother even bought a pair. It is easy for me hear the difference.


At people can differential electrolyte cap from poly or film cap whether you name it. Electrolyte cap cost 10 to even 100 time cheaper than these film or poly caps. Poly or film cap some manufacturer product their own as Jenson or Milfex cost are insane. That goes to in house copper inductor and copper resistor.

As stated several times by other posters and me - there is no evidence that these differences exist. And any perceived differences are most likely due to expectation bias. That’s why controlled, unsighted tests can help. As quoted in my link - controlled tests have failed to identify a difference. And your friends are not a viable, replicable source (neither are my friends who all stated the opposite of what your friends claim).

So please provide hard evidence for your implausible claim and we will all consider it.

 

[BDWoody]

The right to freedom of opinion is the right to hold opinions without interference, and cannot be subject to any exception or restriction.

I think you're confused about a few things. This isn't where you come to assert a bunch of silliness, then claim you have the right to say what you want when you want without being challenged.

You are looking like a troll. Some time off will hopefully take the edge off.

 

[BDWoody]

At people can differential electrolyte cap from poly or film cap whether you name it.

So many claims, so little evidence.

 

[kongwee]

As stated several times by other posters and me - there is no evidence that these differences exist. And any perceived differences are most likely due to expectation bias. That’s why controlled, unsighted tests can help. As quoted in my link - controlled tests have failed to identify a difference. And your friends are not a viable, replicable source (neither are my friends who all stated the opposite of what your friends claim).

So please provide hard evidence for your implausible claim and we will all consider it.

Of course, you are not exposed to these, you can brush it up as claims. There are tons of people do mods. Spending hundreds to thousands just to mod a 1k speaker. People does it also own system like Magico or Wilson audio.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Back to the original question about "soundstage depth". While listening to live un-amplified music - orchestra - I could hear some instrument placement left to right but very little if any depth of field. Yet, on stereo systems some rooms and some recordings have provided depth of imaging in my experience. In my opinion the recording is the primary source of the imaging cues with the room being a contributing factor. Years ago I heard an interesting demo at a small manufacturers listening room. The speakers being shown had an amazing depth of field - really uncanny to perceive. When I commented on this the designer explained why this was so. The speakers were placed a couple of feet out diagonally from the room corners with an open door in the wall between the speakers. Closing the door reduced the perception of depth behind the speakers. Granted, we have 2 things going on - visual cue of the open door plus the room acoustics changing with door open versus closed. Still, a memorable experience.

So, whenever I hear "amazing imaging" in someones stereo I attribute it to the tricks in the recording and the room setup with the speakers themselves the least contributing. Once again, for clarity, in my opinion and or experience.

 

[voodooless]

There are tons of people do mods. Spending hundreds to thousands just to mod a 1k speaker. People does it also own system like Magico or Wilson audio.

Again: what does this prove? Many people believe homeopathy works, but that doesn't make it true...

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Of course, you are not exposed to these, you can brush it up as claims. There are tons of people do mods. Spending hundreds to thousands just to mod a 1k speaker. People does it also own system like Magico or Wilson audio.

As voodoless said. Just because many people do foolish things (mostly misinformed by the audio industry wanting to sell expensive stuff) does not proof anything. There are still people believing the earth is flat.

Sorry you are misguided. There is plenty here in the forum to learn from (provided your are open). (BTW. There is already a „famous“ modifier of cross overs, who miserably failed so far to prove improvements. Hint GR Research. So your claim is not new, but so far no one was able to prove it - I wonder why).

Again, if you have real evidence (except opinions, anecdotes etc) let’s see it.