Snake Oil Department, Top This

[JRS]

this Shunyatta power cable cannot be that good. The Nordost Odin 2 AC Power cable is among the best and vastly superior. You have, of course, to pay more. That Odin Cable is $18,000. I don’t think it is the most expensive power cable around. I’ll have to check the TOL power cables from Transparent Audio or MIT.
The mind boggles.

For that price, one should get a small substation in the backyard.

 

[ahofer]

All audio forum discussions devolve to watch talk, given the time

Are watches the last step in luxury product-discussion entropy?

 

[rdenney]

...impractical spec-chasing.

Yup. That is spelled h-o-b-b-y, by the way.

Rick "who said hobbies have to be practical?" Denney

 

[rdenney]

Are watches the last step in luxury product-discussion entropy?

Nah. The path is circular. In watch forums, they talk about audio stuff, cars, bikes, cameras, etc.

Rick "with a bit of watch-forum experience" Denney

 

[fffffgggg54]

audiophile clock

On the topic of snake oil and audiophile clocks:
Source
dCS Rossini Player 2.0: $30,000 ★
dCS Rossini Clock: $9000 ★
Boasting the updated version of the company's signature Ring DAC, the dCS Rossini Player combines a Red Book CD drive with multiple digital inputs and a UPnP network player. The Rossini Player upsamples to the DXD format—PCM at 352.8kHz or 384kHz—and supports both DoP and native DSD up to DSD128. The Player is compatible with Ethernet and Apple AirPlay, and, as of the time of our review, the most recent version of its iOS app supports Roon endpoint integration. JA combined his review sample of the Rossini Player with the similarly new dCS Rossini Clock; summing up his thoughts on both, he wrote that the combo "produced what was, overall, the best sound from digital I have experienced in my system." Of his measurements, all of which incorporated the Rossini Clock, JA wrote that the Rossini Player offers performance that is "about as good as can be gotten from a thoroughly modern digital audio product." In the June 2019 Stereophile, JVS reported on dCS's Rossini software v2.0, which applies to both the Rossini Player and D/A processor. (Vol.39 No.12, Vol.42 No.6 WWW)

Similar products proven not effective: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/auralic-leo-gx-dac-clock-review.11001/

Master Clocks...Snake Oil?

I was taking a look at the Auralic's products today since they seem to make really great stuff, and I found this Reference Master Clock that's $7,995 USD. https://us.auralic.com/products/leo-gx Would such an upgrade really make an audible difference?

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Robin L]

On the topic of snake oil and audiophile clocks:
Source
dCS Rossini Player 2.0: $30,000 ★
dCS Rossini Clock: $9000 ★
Boasting the updated version of the company's signature Ring DAC, the dCS Rossini Player combines a Red Book CD drive with multiple digital inputs and a UPnP network player. The Rossini Player upsamples to the DXD format—PCM at 352.8kHz or 384kHz—and supports both DoP and native DSD up to DSD128. The Player is compatible with Ethernet and Apple AirPlay, and, as of the time of our review, the most recent version of its iOS app supports Roon endpoint integration. JA combined his review sample of the Rossini Player with the similarly new dCS Rossini Clock; summing up his thoughts on both, he wrote that the combo "produced what was, overall, the best sound from digital I have experienced in my system." Of his measurements, all of which incorporated the Rossini Clock, JA wrote that the Rossini Player offers performance that is "about as good as can be gotten from a thoroughly modern digital audio product." In the June 2019 Stereophile, JVS reported on dCS's Rossini software v2.0, which applies to both the Rossini Player and D/A processor. (Vol.39 No.12, Vol.42 No.6 WWW)

Similar products proven not effective: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/auralic-leo-gx-dac-clock-review.11001/

Master Clocks...Snake Oil?

I was taking a look at the Auralic's products today since they seem to make really great stuff, and I found this Reference Master Clock that's $7,995 USD. https://us.auralic.com/products/leo-gx Would such an upgrade really make an audible difference?

www.audiosciencereview.com

So, can anybody translate these figures into SINAD? How does this compare to the best Topping has to offer?

dCS Rossini Player & Rossini Clock Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I measured the dCS Rossini with my newly recalibrated Audio Precision SYS2722 system (see the January 2008 "As We See It"). As well as test CDs and the Audio Precision's serial digital outputs, I used WAV and AIFF test-tone files sourced via USB from my MacBook Pro...

www.stereophile.com

 

[ahofer]

JA wrote that the Rossini Player offers performance that is "about as good as can be gotten from a thoroughly modern digital audio product."

….even those costing an order of magnitude less. Careful wording, there.

 

[richard12511]

I occasionally read car magazines that have articles about cars I can't afford, too. Some of those cars are stupidly impractical. And I read wristwatch magazines about watches I would never buy at the price they sell for (though I have watches others think are ludicrously expensive, too--it's all a matter of perspective). Some of those watches are downright goofy, but I still like reading about them. Yes, I would like to see content geared towards affordable stuff at a range of definitions of "affordable", but I don't particularly mind if there are reviews of Wilson Audio WATT Puppies or whatever. (And there are those on this forum who do buys stuff like that, and can afford it.)

But, back to my question, which was ignored: ASR's owner has invested well into five figures into his amplifiers, and has Revel Salon2 speakers that cost twenty grand or thereabouts. Is he a fool for spending so much? Does spending so much signify some lack of regard for science on his part?

I wouldn't want to be the one charged with defending that proposition.

Rick "with apologies to Amir for using him as an example" Denney

You do bring up a good point. That is, it depends on what you see the purpose or use of Stereophile is. When I say it would be more useful for most audiophiles if they reviewed cheaper equipment on average, I mean useful in the sense of guiding them towards purchase decisions. If one's usecase is simply entertainment, then what they are doing is probably better. I can agree reading about exotic $600,000 tower speakers is more entertaining than reading about normal $800 towers. I see no use at all for super expensive electronic reviews, but only because I don't believe they really affect the sound all that much; if I did believe, I could see where reading about a $90,000 could be pretty fun .

 

[richard12511]

All audio forum discussions devolve to watch talk, given the time

In some ways, it's a great analogue to hifi gear. A male dominated hobby where we often spend much more for devices than what most people would consider anywhere close to "fair".

There are important differences, though. I think most people buying $100,000 watches aren't buying them because they think it will lead them to time keeping perfection. I think a lot of audiophiles buying $100,000 DACs are amps are doing it *mostly* for the expected performance benefits.

 

[voodooless]

So, can anybody translate these figures into SINAD? How does this compare to the best Topping has to offer?

dCS Rossini Player & Rossini Clock Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I measured the dCS Rossini with my newly recalibrated Audio Precision SYS2722 system (see the January 2008 "As We See It"). As well as test CDs and the Audio Precision's serial digital outputs, I used WAV and AIFF test-tone files sourced via USB from my MacBook Pro...

www.stereophile.com

From what can be seen there it should do pretty well, possibly state of art performance.

 

[rdenney]

You do bring up a good point. That is, it depends on what you see the purpose or use of Stereophile is. When I say it would be more useful for most audiophiles if they reviewed cheaper equipment on average, I mean useful in the sense of guiding them towards purchase decisions. If one's usecase is simply entertainment, then what they are doing is probably better. I can agree reading about exotic $600,000 tower speakers is more entertaining than reading about normal $800 towers. I see no use at all for super expensive electronic reviews, but only because I don't believe they really affect the sound all that much; if I did believe, I could see where reading about a $90,000 could be pretty fun .

When I saw a pair of Revel Concerta F12's for sale, I looked for meaningful reviews that included measurements before pulling the BuyItNow trigger. There was the good review provided by KR, accompanied by JA's measurements, in Stereophile. And there was a not-so-good review, accompanied by better NRC measurements that included a Spinorama, on Sound Stage Network. I paid $700 for those speakers on ebay, and they were $1600 when new. Not cheapies, but not exactly solely in the domain of the landed gentry, either. Other items I've bought that were reviewed well and recommended by S'phile in the modern era: A Musical Fidelity V90 DAC (under $300 new before the flood of hundred-dollar Toppings), an Adcom GFP-565 preamp (under $800 when new--not cheap but assuredly not high-end), Pioneer SP-BS22 speakers ($100 the pair on Amazon), B&K Reference 125 amp (well, its close ancestor, the ST-140), which has always been in the affordable category as big amps go. The Naim CD5 wasn't that expensive used but it was pretty pricey when new (over a couple of grand in the early 2000's when CD players had degenerated to commodity pricing), so I won't include that one in my argument.

Therefore, notwithstanding my unwillingness to pay high-end prices, I've managed to get at least partially worthwhile buying advice from Stereophile for a significant percentage of my recent purchases.

So, yes, they have articles that explore the high end. But I think the claim that they don't support the buying decisions of regular enthusiasts isn't supported by evidence.

Rick "noting that the magazines that focused exclusively on affordable mass-market stuff are all now defunct" Denney

 

[richard12511]

So, yes, they have articles that explore the high end. But I think the claim that they don't support the buying decisions of regular enthusiasts isn't supported by evidence.

Rick "noting that the magazines that focused exclusively on affordable mass-market stuff are all now defunct" Denney

The claim isn't they they don't support the buying decisions of regular enthusiasts, it's that they cater disproportionately to the high end. I think most audiophiles are closer to you than they are the people that buy $10,000 DACs. Very few audiophiles can afford(or are willing to sacrifice enough) to buy $50,000 audio gears, yet it makes up a sizable chunk of what they review. Compare the average price of what they review to the average price of what ASR reviews. I'd actually love to see that, but I'd bet the average price for ASR is much lower, and much closer to what most audiophiles are looking to spend.

I agree with your entertainment angle, though. It is fun to read about super exotic high end systems, even if we can't afford them. I think this is a big part of the reason that Stereophile disproportionately reviews high end gear.

 

[Putter]

When I saw a pair of Revel Concerta F12's for sale, I looked for meaningful reviews that included measurements before pulling the BuyItNow trigger. There was the good review provided by KR, accompanied by JA's measurements, in Stereophile. And there was a not-so-good review, accompanied by better NRC measurements that included a Spinorama, on Sound Stage Network. I paid $700 for those speakers on ebay, and they were $1600 when new. Not cheapies, but not exactly solely in the domain of the landed gentry, either. Other items I've bought that were reviewed well and recommended by S'phile in the modern era: A Musical Fidelity V90 DAC (under $300 new before the flood of hundred-dollar Toppings), an Adcom GFP-565 preamp (under $800 when new--not cheap but assuredly not high-end), Pioneer SP-BS22 speakers ($100 the pair on Amazon), B&K Reference 125 amp (well, its close ancestor, the ST-140), which has always been in the affordable category as big amps go. The Naim CD5 wasn't that expensive used but it was pretty pricey when new (over a couple of grand in the early 2000's when CD players had degenerated to commodity pricing), so I won't include that one in my argument.

Therefore, notwithstanding my unwillingness to pay high-end prices, I've managed to get at least partially worthwhile buying advice from Stereophile for a significant percentage of my recent purchases.

So, yes, they have articles that explore the high end. But I think the claim that they don't support the buying decisions of regular enthusiasts isn't supported by evidence.

Rick "noting that the magazines that focused exclusively on affordable mass-market stuff are all now defunct" Denney

I would include the Infinity Primus 150, 162 and 360 (unfortunately, all that attention didn't save the brand), various Polks, JBL and Boston. They have made a reasonable effort to review sub $1000 speakers with measurements. The measurement are where it's at as they've never met a speaker they didn't like. Where they lose me is the electronics and interconnects which usually are more in the realm of audio jewelry written up as "essential to take the next step upward."

 

[Robin L]

From what can be seen there it should do pretty well, possibly state of art performance.

Right---How does its performance directly compare to the Topping D90SE?

 

[voodooless]

Right---How does its performance directly compare to the Topping D90SE?

Buy one and send it in... then we'll know

 

[Robin L]

Buy one and send it in... then we'll know

Assuming that JA knows how to measure this sort of gear, all we would need is for someone to translate his format into Amir's. I don't know how to do that, but I'm sure someone at this forum [Amir?] can.

 

[fffffgggg54]

Assuming that JA knows how to measure this sort of gear, all we would need is for someone to translate his format into Amir's. I don't know how to do that, but I'm sure someone at this forum [Amir?] can.

Either way both dacs way outperform the limits of other electronics and human hearing. Exotic street cars designed to be able to reach 250mph/400kmph or more doesn’t mean it will ever go more than 100/160, or even driven much at all for that matter. I will say that the dCS and other 10k+ units look stellar.

 

[DanielT]

Is this Snake Oil? In any case, I have never heard of this:

 

[escksu]

Is this Snake Oil? In any case, I have never heard of this:

I am not sure why 36 degrees but the principle behind it seems simple enough.

CDs are usually not perfectly balanced and this causes vibration. So by scrapping off a bit of the edge, you get a nice circle. The 36 degrees, i think it may be akin to kinfe-edging of crankshaft, reducing resistance. Less resistance will reduce vibration. Maybe he tried several angles and decide on 36 degrees.

 

[voodooless]

Assuming that JA knows how to measure this sort of gear, all we would need is for someone to translate his format into Amir's. I don't know how to do that, but I'm sure someone at this forum [Amir?] can.

Ah, you just don't want to donate, do you But yes, you can do that up to a point (hence the conclusion that it's probably pretty good), but not all data overlaps, nor are the measurement conditions the same.